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	<title>Comments on: Sowing seeds but never harvesting: a polemic about teaching and an attack on the educrats</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Col Steve</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-122546</link>
		<dc:creator>Col Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-122546</guid>
		<description>Hugo,

  In the military, we often talk about "balancing near-term operational risk against future risk."  Of course, the here and now often wins out.  Or, as Lewis Carroll Alice's said, "But then, shall I never get any older than I am now? That'll be a comfort, one way -- never to be an old woman -- but then -- always to have lessons to learn!"

  I suspect the answer to your question is not likely. Perhaps that issue should be raised by the wise, tenured professors instead of wondering what sort of "a free lunch will be put on?"  Maybe there is some rich soil here and there among those rocky educrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo,</p>
<p>  In the military, we often talk about &#8220;balancing near-term operational risk against future risk.&#8221;  Of course, the here and now often wins out.  Or, as Lewis Carroll Alice&#8217;s said, &#8220;But then, shall I never get any older than I am now? That&#8217;ll be a comfort, one way &#8212; never to be an old woman &#8212; but then &#8212; always to have lessons to learn!&#8221;</p>
<p>  I suspect the answer to your question is not likely. Perhaps that issue should be raised by the wise, tenured professors instead of wondering what sort of &#8220;a free lunch will be put on?&#8221;  Maybe there is some rich soil here and there among those rocky educrats.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-122491</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-122491</guid>
		<description>Col Steve, I would be very interested in some good longitudinal studies.  The question is, do those shrieking "accountability now!" have the patience?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Col Steve, I would be very interested in some good longitudinal studies.  The question is, do those shrieking &#8220;accountability now!&#8221; have the patience?</p>
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		<title>By: Col Steve</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-122483</link>
		<dc:creator>Col Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-122483</guid>
		<description>"After all, the educrats opine, we can’t really be effective “learning facilitators” until we become aware of our own learning styles — and how our own “ways of learning” may be obstacles to understanding the needs of students (sorry, “fellow learners”) who have different styles."   I assume you are being facetious, but mockery from someone who makes his (and his spouse's) MBTI type number 3 on the miscellaneous list describing himself?

Ok..more to the point. 

The most important things my students learn in my classes can’t possibly be measured by any government-provided instrument.

I'm curious if any discussions come up about longitudinal studies on former students. While there are design issues to be sure, I think such studies might provide some objective insight into capturing the "future value" of today's learning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;After all, the educrats opine, we can’t really be effective “learning facilitators” until we become aware of our own learning styles — and how our own “ways of learning” may be obstacles to understanding the needs of students (sorry, “fellow learners”) who have different styles.&#8221;   I assume you are being facetious, but mockery from someone who makes his (and his spouse&#8217;s) MBTI type number 3 on the miscellaneous list describing himself?</p>
<p>Ok..more to the point. </p>
<p>The most important things my students learn in my classes can’t possibly be measured by any government-provided instrument.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious if any discussions come up about longitudinal studies on former students. While there are design issues to be sure, I think such studies might provide some objective insight into capturing the &#8220;future value&#8221; of today&#8217;s learning.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-121692</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-121692</guid>
		<description>Jessica, remember that I'm teaching seven sections (as are most of my colleagues) of 45-50 students each without TAs.  I'm also dealing with a substantial percentage of first-generation students with limited English proficiency; if I open the class up for discussion, invariably the native speakers dominate and the foreign-born are more marginalized than they would be under the lecture method. 

If I were teaching well-prepared law students, it would indeed be far more collaborative.  Teaching fifty 18 year-olds who come from Armenia and Argentina, from Ghana and Guatemala, from China and Colombia, necessitates a simpler format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jessica, remember that I&#8217;m teaching seven sections (as are most of my colleagues) of 45-50 students each without TAs.  I&#8217;m also dealing with a substantial percentage of first-generation students with limited English proficiency; if I open the class up for discussion, invariably the native speakers dominate and the foreign-born are more marginalized than they would be under the lecture method. </p>
<p>If I were teaching well-prepared law students, it would indeed be far more collaborative.  Teaching fifty 18 year-olds who come from Armenia and Argentina, from Ghana and Guatemala, from China and Colombia, necessitates a simpler format.</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-121582</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-121582</guid>
		<description>Having just gone to a lecture given at my university by Lana Guinier in which she discussed the type of classroom structure you're dismissing in you post, I will admit my view has been a little biased. Nevertheless, I have to say that I think that there are considerable merits to the idea of teachers as "learning facilitators".

I should give some background: I am an undergraduate in my final year at a liberal arts college. Last year, I studied abroad in Ireland. My experiences between the two universities have led me to prefer a teaching style more in line with "learning facilitator" than the traditional teacher, who "professes" what there is to learn from the material and the subject. I think of it more as a spectrum than as a dichotomy. Yes, the teacher should be recognised as   as the authority. But I believe a healthy [large] amount of challenge to that authority is beneficial. When teachers act as discussion leaders, guiding and shaping the course of discourse, I find a higher yield in learning. But the classroom, most fundamentally, should be a site of discussion, not didacticism. 

In Ms. Guinier's lecture, she spoke anecdotally about her own experiences with research into the success of female law students. What she had learned was that learning was treated like a game; classrooms were like sports fields. The goal was to win. Most people, under this framework (the one fostered by traditional teaching), are losers. When, on the other hand, the classroom was treated more like a site of collaborative learning (the emphasis here on the inclusion of the professor under the category of learning), everyone gained more.

What frustrated me about your post is that you seemed to have dismissed an opportunity to learn. As a teacher, that's remarkable. True, the training day seems to have been handled rather ridiculously ('learning facilitator' is a term bound to inspire incredulity), but you didn't try to look past &lt;i&gt;how&lt;/i&gt; they were saying things to &lt;i&gt;what&lt;/i&gt; they were saying. I think there's more than a grain of wisdom in the approach they were trying to communicate. Your point about SLOs is apt, but should not be lumped in.

You care about being a gardener. Being a "learning facilitator" (still not a term I like) is not in opposition to this metaphor for teaching. Perhaps a different teaching style is like using a different type of tool to garden--it will get to different types of soil in a different way. And I think it would be worth pondering &#38; testing, before bemusedly rejecting.

(This all wasn't stated at well as I'd like, but as this is my means of procrastination on homework, alas, I run up against the limits of a justifiable tangent.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having just gone to a lecture given at my university by Lana Guinier in which she discussed the type of classroom structure you&#8217;re dismissing in you post, I will admit my view has been a little biased. Nevertheless, I have to say that I think that there are considerable merits to the idea of teachers as &#8220;learning facilitators&#8221;.</p>
<p>I should give some background: I am an undergraduate in my final year at a liberal arts college. Last year, I studied abroad in Ireland. My experiences between the two universities have led me to prefer a teaching style more in line with &#8220;learning facilitator&#8221; than the traditional teacher, who &#8220;professes&#8221; what there is to learn from the material and the subject. I think of it more as a spectrum than as a dichotomy. Yes, the teacher should be recognised as   as the authority. But I believe a healthy [large] amount of challenge to that authority is beneficial. When teachers act as discussion leaders, guiding and shaping the course of discourse, I find a higher yield in learning. But the classroom, most fundamentally, should be a site of discussion, not didacticism. </p>
<p>In Ms. Guinier&#8217;s lecture, she spoke anecdotally about her own experiences with research into the success of female law students. What she had learned was that learning was treated like a game; classrooms were like sports fields. The goal was to win. Most people, under this framework (the one fostered by traditional teaching), are losers. When, on the other hand, the classroom was treated more like a site of collaborative learning (the emphasis here on the inclusion of the professor under the category of learning), everyone gained more.</p>
<p>What frustrated me about your post is that you seemed to have dismissed an opportunity to learn. As a teacher, that&#8217;s remarkable. True, the training day seems to have been handled rather ridiculously (&#8217;learning facilitator&#8217; is a term bound to inspire incredulity), but you didn&#8217;t try to look past <i>how</i> they were saying things to <i>what</i> they were saying. I think there&#8217;s more than a grain of wisdom in the approach they were trying to communicate. Your point about SLOs is apt, but should not be lumped in.</p>
<p>You care about being a gardener. Being a &#8220;learning facilitator&#8221; (still not a term I like) is not in opposition to this metaphor for teaching. Perhaps a different teaching style is like using a different type of tool to garden&#8211;it will get to different types of soil in a different way. And I think it would be worth pondering &amp; testing, before bemusedly rejecting.</p>
<p>(This all wasn&#8217;t stated at well as I&#8217;d like, but as this is my means of procrastination on homework, alas, I run up against the limits of a justifiable tangent.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mermade</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120322</link>
		<dc:creator>Mermade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120322</guid>
		<description>I admit that I rolled my eyes when I read the term "learning facilitators." Dear Dr. Purfumo, please spare us the the politically correct crap. You guys are professors and we are students. As I tutor, I consider myself a "learning facilitator" because my tutees and I are on the same level -- we are both students at PCC trying to pass our classes, and I am paid minimum wage to help them out to the best of my ability. I like it when my professors are strict with us and draw clear boundaries between who is teaching and who is learning. It isn't as patronizing as creating a "learning enviornment." I wonder if they would disagree with your grading policy. Call it capitalist, but I it makes me work harder and I like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit that I rolled my eyes when I read the term &#8220;learning facilitators.&#8221; Dear Dr. Purfumo, please spare us the the politically correct crap. You guys are professors and we are students. As I tutor, I consider myself a &#8220;learning facilitator&#8221; because my tutees and I are on the same level &#8212; we are both students at PCC trying to pass our classes, and I am paid minimum wage to help them out to the best of my ability. I like it when my professors are strict with us and draw clear boundaries between who is teaching and who is learning. It isn&#8217;t as patronizing as creating a &#8220;learning enviornment.&#8221; I wonder if they would disagree with your grading policy. Call it capitalist, but I it makes me work harder and I like it.</p>
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		<title>By: humbition</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120275</link>
		<dc:creator>humbition</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120275</guid>
		<description>I absolutely love the love affair of so many of our society's hierarchies with (verbal assertions of) nonhierarchy.  The top-down imposition (by administration upon teachers) justified as overturning top-down impositions (by teachers upon students).

It is the new passive-aggressive version of Authority.  By all means increase control, but call it accountability.  Confuse everyone with the language of egalitarian utopia, as you intensify inegalitarian structures.  

It is the language of New Management as well, as we all know.  Theoretically a change from old organization-chart thinking; in practice, Dilbert.  

You say you're "no longer inherently opposed to being held accountable."  No moral person should be; and yet, if the accountability is relentlessly &lt;i&gt;upwards&lt;/i&gt; and increases the &lt;i&gt;structural&lt;/i&gt; control of someone who subordinates you, surprise! your liberty may be at risk.  And in this case, "liberty" equals academic freedom.

It is the turn of the Foucaultian screw.  And I wish Foucault were alive to write about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely love the love affair of so many of our society&#8217;s hierarchies with (verbal assertions of) nonhierarchy.  The top-down imposition (by administration upon teachers) justified as overturning top-down impositions (by teachers upon students).</p>
<p>It is the new passive-aggressive version of Authority.  By all means increase control, but call it accountability.  Confuse everyone with the language of egalitarian utopia, as you intensify inegalitarian structures.  </p>
<p>It is the language of New Management as well, as we all know.  Theoretically a change from old organization-chart thinking; in practice, Dilbert.  </p>
<p>You say you&#8217;re &#8220;no longer inherently opposed to being held accountable.&#8221;  No moral person should be; and yet, if the accountability is relentlessly <i>upwards</i> and increases the <i>structural</i> control of someone who subordinates you, surprise! your liberty may be at risk.  And in this case, &#8220;liberty&#8221; equals academic freedom.</p>
<p>It is the turn of the Foucaultian screw.  And I wish Foucault were alive to write about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120211</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120211</guid>
		<description>This is unrelated, but I just wanted to say how happy I am to see you back and writing again.  This is one of my favorite stops on the web.  Glad you enjoyed your trip, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is unrelated, but I just wanted to say how happy I am to see you back and writing again.  This is one of my favorite stops on the web.  Glad you enjoyed your trip, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120177</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120177</guid>
		<description>April, if my tone came across as whiny, that's my error.  I meant it to come across as bemused, but I fell short of the mark.

I teach seven classes with 45-50 students in each; I have no TAs and do all the grading myself.  That's 325-350 final exams which have to be graded in 72 hours every semester.  There's a limit to what sort of assessment tools I can employ in those conditions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>April, if my tone came across as whiny, that&#8217;s my error.  I meant it to come across as bemused, but I fell short of the mark.</p>
<p>I teach seven classes with 45-50 students in each; I have no TAs and do all the grading myself.  That&#8217;s 325-350 final exams which have to be graded in 72 hours every semester.  There&#8217;s a limit to what sort of assessment tools I can employ in those conditions.</p>
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		<title>By: davev</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120174</link>
		<dc:creator>davev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/27/educrats-and-slos-sowing-seeds-but-never-harvesting-a-polemic-about-teaching/#comment-120174</guid>
		<description>The language about "break-throughs' makes me wonder if there's a frustrated therapist in there somewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The language about &#8220;break-throughs&#8217; makes me wonder if there&#8217;s a frustrated therapist in there somewhere.</p>
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