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	<title>Comments on: A long post on feminism, BDSM, consent, and constructive suffering</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jenllip</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-318851</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenllip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-318851</guid>
		<description>Rainbow-

I don't know if you'll ever read this, but I really just wish I could give you a hug. I'm so sorry you've had such traumatizing experiences and it makes complete sense why you feel the way you do. I know it is probably useless to say, given how strongly your negative experience has affected you, but I do beg you to consider that one person (or a few people) is not representative of a whole (large!) community.

Especially with a topic so twisted by media and so difficult to explain, there are those who will use it as a name (a defense) for what they do wrongfully.

Again, I apologize on behalf of those who practice safe, sane, consensual BDSM practices, that our name was perverted to harm you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rainbow-</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ll ever read this, but I really just wish I could give you a hug. I&#8217;m so sorry you&#8217;ve had such traumatizing experiences and it makes complete sense why you feel the way you do. I know it is probably useless to say, given how strongly your negative experience has affected you, but I do beg you to consider that one person (or a few people) is not representative of a whole (large!) community.</p>
<p>Especially with a topic so twisted by media and so difficult to explain, there are those who will use it as a name (a defense) for what they do wrongfully.</p>
<p>Again, I apologize on behalf of those who practice safe, sane, consensual BDSM practices, that our name was perverted to harm you.</p>
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		<title>By: Rainbow</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-204124</link>
		<dc:creator>Rainbow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-204124</guid>
		<description>Not to mention the collaring, the owning.  Slavery still exists in this country.   It is certainly not feminism to own a women, humiliate her, loan her out to other doms for sex, torture and beatings.  Read and see what these people do to women on their sites and chats.  It is not pretty and it should be criminal, except the women are sick enough to accept the torture and the beatings just to say they have a boy friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention the collaring, the owning.  Slavery still exists in this country.   It is certainly not feminism to own a women, humiliate her, loan her out to other doms for sex, torture and beatings.  Read and see what these people do to women on their sites and chats.  It is not pretty and it should be criminal, except the women are sick enough to accept the torture and the beatings just to say they have a boy friend.</p>
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		<title>By: Rainbow</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-204105</link>
		<dc:creator>Rainbow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-204105</guid>
		<description>Just because the sadist or the M is a feminist, does not mean they don't bring their cruelty and inflict harm at home, in the office, on their relatives, cheat the government, etc.  The whole point of BDSM is cruelty, meanness, destruction, cutting up another person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because the sadist or the M is a feminist, does not mean they don&#8217;t bring their cruelty and inflict harm at home, in the office, on their relatives, cheat the government, etc.  The whole point of BDSM is cruelty, meanness, destruction, cutting up another person.</p>
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		<title>By: Rainbow</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-204097</link>
		<dc:creator>Rainbow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 01:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-204097</guid>
		<description>My generalization are based on the personal experience of being abused by a proud perverted BDSM psychopath.  Don't believe the BDSM hype.  Sadism does not stop at the extramarital mistress' door.  It is brought up home to abuse the non kink wife and children.  These people torture each other, injure each other, have no respect for each other or any other human being.  If that is empowering than you probably applaud Nazis, people who torture animals, and all other kinds of abusers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My generalization are based on the personal experience of being abused by a proud perverted BDSM psychopath.  Don&#8217;t believe the BDSM hype.  Sadism does not stop at the extramarital mistress&#8217; door.  It is brought up home to abuse the non kink wife and children.  These people torture each other, injure each other, have no respect for each other or any other human being.  If that is empowering than you probably applaud Nazis, people who torture animals, and all other kinds of abusers.</p>
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		<title>By: pisaquari</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-151295</link>
		<dc:creator>pisaquari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-151295</guid>
		<description>"Why in the world would you want to do that? if you have good orgasms why mess with it? just because it’s in the “wrong” place?"

Right Darla.  All those pedos, rapists, assualters, animal screwers--leave that nice orgasm alone!

Please don't take over the world anytime soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why in the world would you want to do that? if you have good orgasms why mess with it? just because it’s in the “wrong” place?&#8221;</p>
<p>Right Darla.  All those pedos, rapists, assualters, animal screwers&#8211;leave that nice orgasm alone!</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t take over the world anytime soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Darla</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-138045</link>
		<dc:creator>Darla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-138045</guid>
		<description>"re-conditioning my orgasm" -- Why in the world would you want to do that?  if you have good orgasms why mess with it? just because it's in the "wrong" place? 

*rolls eyes*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;re-conditioning my orgasm&#8221; &#8212; Why in the world would you want to do that?  if you have good orgasms why mess with it? just because it&#8217;s in the &#8220;wrong&#8221; place? </p>
<p>*rolls eyes*</p>
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		<title>By: Sequoia</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-123324</link>
		<dc:creator>Sequoia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-123324</guid>
		<description>Christian Feminist perspective--try Carter Heyward's book called:  Touching, Our Strength.   the power of God and the Erotic.  Love Heyward's work, and call myself a Christian Feminist.  I'm also bisexual in a long term, somewhat vanilla relationship with a woman, and I love being dominated by a man.  Presently have a second lover.  So I'm polyamorous as well.  

Never would have believed it of myself a few years back, but my fantasies have always been about being dominated.  I suppose it could be considered somehow patriarchal in nature, but it is not an oppressive thing for me.  If it were I would walk away from it in an instant.  It is freeing in a way I could never have imagined it would be.  And it doesn't leave me feeling disempowered in the least, but rather God meets us there in the midst of it all.  It feels sacred.  My submission is born of love and when I give that willingly to someone who respects and sees it for what it is, then transformation happens, and I step into a new kind of power in my life.  

That said, there are plenty of dominant men out there that I would never offer my submission to.  Their need for power, their greed for control are terrifying.  I can recognize the difference.  Yes, the man who is my dom at present has some control issues...so do I.  But there is also a feeling of respect and there is love.  So we can channel those control issues into a kind of play that releases something for each of us.  It is a great catharthis.

Wrong/Right is a kind of dualism that feminism really tries to avoid at its core.  We are individuals.  Each of responds differently to certain stimulations.  Our bodies are uniquely our own.  I spent many years as a feminist trying to stuff these desires back down.  But I've had enough of that.  I think in the play there is something that happens which turns patriarchy on it's head.  It is just the opposite of what one would expect.  Paradox.  I love paradox.  Life is full of it, and I want to embrace it fully, joyfully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christian Feminist perspective&#8211;try Carter Heyward&#8217;s book called:  Touching, Our Strength.   the power of God and the Erotic.  Love Heyward&#8217;s work, and call myself a Christian Feminist.  I&#8217;m also bisexual in a long term, somewhat vanilla relationship with a woman, and I love being dominated by a man.  Presently have a second lover.  So I&#8217;m polyamorous as well.  </p>
<p>Never would have believed it of myself a few years back, but my fantasies have always been about being dominated.  I suppose it could be considered somehow patriarchal in nature, but it is not an oppressive thing for me.  If it were I would walk away from it in an instant.  It is freeing in a way I could never have imagined it would be.  And it doesn&#8217;t leave me feeling disempowered in the least, but rather God meets us there in the midst of it all.  It feels sacred.  My submission is born of love and when I give that willingly to someone who respects and sees it for what it is, then transformation happens, and I step into a new kind of power in my life.  </p>
<p>That said, there are plenty of dominant men out there that I would never offer my submission to.  Their need for power, their greed for control are terrifying.  I can recognize the difference.  Yes, the man who is my dom at present has some control issues&#8230;so do I.  But there is also a feeling of respect and there is love.  So we can channel those control issues into a kind of play that releases something for each of us.  It is a great catharthis.</p>
<p>Wrong/Right is a kind of dualism that feminism really tries to avoid at its core.  We are individuals.  Each of responds differently to certain stimulations.  Our bodies are uniquely our own.  I spent many years as a feminist trying to stuff these desires back down.  But I&#8217;ve had enough of that.  I think in the play there is something that happens which turns patriarchy on it&#8217;s head.  It is just the opposite of what one would expect.  Paradox.  I love paradox.  Life is full of it, and I want to embrace it fully, joyfully.</p>
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		<title>By: Why Masturbation Is A Feminist Issue : Elaine Vigneault</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-122633</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Masturbation Is A Feminist Issue : Elaine Vigneault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 00:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-122633</guid>
		<description>[...] pisaquari at Hugo's blog explains what's so great about masturbation and why it's a feminist issue: "How can I distinguish between what I really want and what society has acculturated me to want? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] pisaquari at Hugo&#8217;s blog explains what&#8217;s so great about masturbation and why it&#8217;s a feminist issue: &#8220;How can I distinguish between what I really want and what society has acculturated me to want? [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: krystyna</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-121789</link>
		<dc:creator>krystyna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-121789</guid>
		<description>I read a book awhile ago called Unwanted Sex by Stephen Schulholfer. In it, the author makes the point that just because someone does not explicitly consent before having sex, it may not necessarily mean that he or she has consented. Why should the default be "yes" to all sex, unless told otherwise?  

I'm not sure if I believe that the implicit assumption of consent isn't reasonable (i.e. absence of "no" often means "yes"), but it does lead to an often derided suggestion: before any sex, consent must be obtained. (This would probably lower incidences of date rape where there does seem to have been real misinterpretation of consent.) I think of this as I think of the suggestion that I wrap myself and/or my partner in latex before engaging in ANY sexual activity: impractical, awkward but really, the best, safest practice. 

BDSM is ALL about consent. It's all about communication. It's all about trust, honesty, clarity (and, actually, sobriety -- no one suggests engaging in BDSM play while drunk or high). It is literally asking for permission for every act, which necessitates extremely explicit description of what it is you want to do. You are given a choice, and you have to clearly make a choice. Done right, it is the most empowering sexual experience many of us will ever have. Maybe choosing to be dominated is the "wrong" choice for a feminist -- I personally do not believe that! -- but in regular sex, no one ever so clearly acknowledges that my body is my property, and mine alone, and only I can say what can be done to it. Isn't that a feminist ideal? Strange that it should often be found amongst whips and chains, but not always -- in fact, rarely, in explicit terms -- in gentle, "respectful" caresses that just sort of happen.

Okay, I took way too much space just saying, "dude, I think BDSM is totally compatible with feminism".  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read a book awhile ago called Unwanted Sex by Stephen Schulholfer. In it, the author makes the point that just because someone does not explicitly consent before having sex, it may not necessarily mean that he or she has consented. Why should the default be &#8220;yes&#8221; to all sex, unless told otherwise?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure if I believe that the implicit assumption of consent isn&#8217;t reasonable (i.e. absence of &#8220;no&#8221; often means &#8220;yes&#8221;), but it does lead to an often derided suggestion: before any sex, consent must be obtained. (This would probably lower incidences of date rape where there does seem to have been real misinterpretation of consent.) I think of this as I think of the suggestion that I wrap myself and/or my partner in latex before engaging in ANY sexual activity: impractical, awkward but really, the best, safest practice. </p>
<p>BDSM is ALL about consent. It&#8217;s all about communication. It&#8217;s all about trust, honesty, clarity (and, actually, sobriety &#8212; no one suggests engaging in BDSM play while drunk or high). It is literally asking for permission for every act, which necessitates extremely explicit description of what it is you want to do. You are given a choice, and you have to clearly make a choice. Done right, it is the most empowering sexual experience many of us will ever have. Maybe choosing to be dominated is the &#8220;wrong&#8221; choice for a feminist &#8212; I personally do not believe that! &#8212; but in regular sex, no one ever so clearly acknowledges that my body is my property, and mine alone, and only I can say what can be done to it. Isn&#8217;t that a feminist ideal? Strange that it should often be found amongst whips and chains, but not always &#8212; in fact, rarely, in explicit terms &#8212; in gentle, &#8220;respectful&#8221; caresses that just sort of happen.</p>
<p>Okay, I took way too much space just saying, &#8220;dude, I think BDSM is totally compatible with feminism&#8221;.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: Dev</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-121770</link>
		<dc:creator>Dev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/09/28/a-long-post-on-feminism-bdsm-consent-and-constructive-suffering/#comment-121770</guid>
		<description>Pisaquari, I really do understand your points.  I'm a feminist and I'm pretty sure if I didn't feel the way I do, I'd completely agree with you.  I was raised in and I do surround myself with a culture of people who are not into power hierarchies.  And almost all of my relationships have had no bdsm in them (except what I brought inside my own head).

Something I'm curious about is whether, if we succeeded in eradicating (or mostly eradicating) patriarchy, there would still be bdsm?  Would it disappear because these themes of violence, control, and authority would no longer infest people's childhoods, when their sexuality is forming?  Or would it simply become easier to practice "cleanly"?  (I certainly think it's possible to do consensual bdsm in a way that it almost certainly wasn't 200 years ago.  This is a good thing.)

I know I'd feel a lot better about what I do if there weren't &lt;em&gt;real&lt;/em&gt; torture, etc., in the world.  In the meantime, I'm going to be like the feminists who dress up in a feminine way - acknowledge that there are good points to be made against it, but choose (as best I am able, and realizing that choices themselves are culturally constrained) what brings me the most pleasure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pisaquari, I really do understand your points.  I&#8217;m a feminist and I&#8217;m pretty sure if I didn&#8217;t feel the way I do, I&#8217;d completely agree with you.  I was raised in and I do surround myself with a culture of people who are not into power hierarchies.  And almost all of my relationships have had no bdsm in them (except what I brought inside my own head).</p>
<p>Something I&#8217;m curious about is whether, if we succeeded in eradicating (or mostly eradicating) patriarchy, there would still be bdsm?  Would it disappear because these themes of violence, control, and authority would no longer infest people&#8217;s childhoods, when their sexuality is forming?  Or would it simply become easier to practice &#8220;cleanly&#8221;?  (I certainly think it&#8217;s possible to do consensual bdsm in a way that it almost certainly wasn&#8217;t 200 years ago.  This is a good thing.)</p>
<p>I know I&#8217;d feel a lot better about what I do if there weren&#8217;t <em>real</em> torture, etc., in the world.  In the meantime, I&#8217;m going to be like the feminists who dress up in a feminine way - acknowledge that there are good points to be made against it, but choose (as best I am able, and realizing that choices themselves are culturally constrained) what brings me the most pleasure.</p>
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