<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/2.3.3" -->
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Jesus doesn&#8217;t care who the current Caesar is: some thoughts on the latest phase in the All Saints quarrel</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Jesus should care about Caesar</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122857</link>
		<dc:creator>Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Jesus should care about Caesar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 16:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122857</guid>
		<description>[...] Hugo Schwyzer says that &#8220;Jesus doesn&#8217;t care who the current Caesar is.&#8221; He believes that one&#8217;s Christian faith should radically transform every aspect of one&#8217;s life, but should be set aside when one enters the voting booth. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Hugo Schwyzer says that &#8220;Jesus doesn&#8217;t care who the current Caesar is.&#8221; He believes that one&#8217;s Christian faith should radically transform every aspect of one&#8217;s life, but should be set aside when one enters the voting booth. [&#8230;]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Col Steve</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122541</link>
		<dc:creator>Col Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122541</guid>
		<description>Mermade --  HATE is a fairly strong emotion to display toward someone I suspect you (and most people) know only from a distance or through what the media provides. 

I too cannot claim to "know" the President, but if you have seen (as I have) the President after talking with Gold Star families, visiting at Walter Reed Hospital, or mingling with servicemembers, arrogance is not a trait that comes to mind. 

If our leaders followed public opinion polls, then we would not need to discuss immigration or gay marriage/rights much more as public opinion is fairly consistent in what course public policy should take (and I suspect the general direction would not be in accord with many readers of this blog). I am not aware of many politicians who are completely indifferent to public opinion polls, but I have greater respect for those leaders who do not use them as the primary basis for their policy positions. 


 "I wonder what Jesus would say if he came down and had a look at the profound messes we’ve made in His name."  

One can look throughout history and consider that question.  Consider President Lincoln in both a letter (first quote) and his 2d inaugural address (second quote)..

  "If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God."

  "With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan--to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations."

I agree with Hugo's line - It matters little that today’s aspiring Caesars are Christians; once in office, their loyalties to the state almost invariably trump their religious convictions.  While I have no doubt religion influences this President (not uncommon in U.S. hisory), where do you find official sources of the President using Christianity to justify the war? Even Hillary Clinton has stated, "I was one who supported giving President Bush the authority, if necessary, to use force against Saddam Hussein. I believe that that was the right vote. I have had many disputes and disagreements with the administration over how that authority has been used, but I stand by the vote to provide the authority because I think it was a necessary step in order to maximize the outcome that did occur in the Security Council with the unanimous vote to send in inspectors."


I think a key word in your response was "see."  How many people have ever read the United States National Security Strategy or read/listened to the President's Second Inaugural Address?  How many have read Senator Obama's or former Senator Edwards' pieces in Foreign Affairs to question what the sources they draw on when stating they want to restore America's "moral leadership in the world?" (all available on-line) Is the President's call for "liberation" at the United Nations (and did anyone "see" this in the news?) -

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/09/20070925-3.html 

a result of his Christianity or just in the best national interests of the United States? 

I'm not a huge supporter of this Administration either. However, I think another possible reason for any confusion and manipulation of religion in politics is the superficial attention given to understanding the issues.  I learned more in 30 minutes about Guiliani's, Edwards', Obama's, and Romney's foreign policy and national security perspectives by reading Foreign Affairs than 30 hours of watching 30 second debate answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mermade &#8212;  HATE is a fairly strong emotion to display toward someone I suspect you (and most people) know only from a distance or through what the media provides. </p>
<p>I too cannot claim to &#8220;know&#8221; the President, but if you have seen (as I have) the President after talking with Gold Star families, visiting at Walter Reed Hospital, or mingling with servicemembers, arrogance is not a trait that comes to mind. </p>
<p>If our leaders followed public opinion polls, then we would not need to discuss immigration or gay marriage/rights much more as public opinion is fairly consistent in what course public policy should take (and I suspect the general direction would not be in accord with many readers of this blog). I am not aware of many politicians who are completely indifferent to public opinion polls, but I have greater respect for those leaders who do not use them as the primary basis for their policy positions. </p>
<p> &#8220;I wonder what Jesus would say if he came down and had a look at the profound messes we’ve made in His name.&#8221;  </p>
<p>One can look throughout history and consider that question.  Consider President Lincoln in both a letter (first quote) and his 2d inaugural address (second quote)..</p>
<p>  &#8220;If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay fairly for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God.&#8221;</p>
<p>  &#8220;With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation&#8217;s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan&#8211;to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with Hugo&#8217;s line - It matters little that today’s aspiring Caesars are Christians; once in office, their loyalties to the state almost invariably trump their religious convictions.  While I have no doubt religion influences this President (not uncommon in U.S. hisory), where do you find official sources of the President using Christianity to justify the war? Even Hillary Clinton has stated, &#8220;I was one who supported giving President Bush the authority, if necessary, to use force against Saddam Hussein. I believe that that was the right vote. I have had many disputes and disagreements with the administration over how that authority has been used, but I stand by the vote to provide the authority because I think it was a necessary step in order to maximize the outcome that did occur in the Security Council with the unanimous vote to send in inspectors.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think a key word in your response was &#8220;see.&#8221;  How many people have ever read the United States National Security Strategy or read/listened to the President&#8217;s Second Inaugural Address?  How many have read Senator Obama&#8217;s or former Senator Edwards&#8217; pieces in Foreign Affairs to question what the sources they draw on when stating they want to restore America&#8217;s &#8220;moral leadership in the world?&#8221; (all available on-line) Is the President&#8217;s call for &#8220;liberation&#8221; at the United Nations (and did anyone &#8220;see&#8221; this in the news?) -</p>
<p><a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/09/20070925-3.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/09/20070925-3.html</a> </p>
<p>a result of his Christianity or just in the best national interests of the United States? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a huge supporter of this Administration either. However, I think another possible reason for any confusion and manipulation of religion in politics is the superficial attention given to understanding the issues.  I learned more in 30 minutes about Guiliani&#8217;s, Edwards&#8217;, Obama&#8217;s, and Romney&#8217;s foreign policy and national security perspectives by reading Foreign Affairs than 30 hours of watching 30 second debate answers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122422</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122422</guid>
		<description>Thanks, guys.

The number of folks who have come to the same conclusion about All Saints (that we love and respect many of those involved, but in the end decide we don't "fit in" anymore) is legion.  But the process of enchantment and consequent disillusionment is an old one, in love affairs and church affiliations...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, guys.</p>
<p>The number of folks who have come to the same conclusion about All Saints (that we love and respect many of those involved, but in the end decide we don&#8217;t &#8220;fit in&#8221; anymore) is legion.  But the process of enchantment and consequent disillusionment is an old one, in love affairs and church affiliations&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom Head</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122285</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Head</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 06:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-122285</guid>
		<description>Very, very well said.

I read George+'s sermon, got to the part where Jesus criticizes Bush like some second-string &lt;i&gt;Crossfire&lt;/i&gt; guest host, and thought (a) I could see why, two days before the election, this could be a 501(c)3 problem, and (b) as much as I respect many people involved in that church (Ed+ used to be dean at my own former parish of St. Andrew's Cathedral here in Mississippi; Susan+ heads up Integrity, where I used to be diocesan network coordinator), I don't think I'd fit in very well over there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very, very well said.</p>
<p>I read George+&#8217;s sermon, got to the part where Jesus criticizes Bush like some second-string <i>Crossfire</i> guest host, and thought (a) I could see why, two days before the election, this could be a 501(c)3 problem, and (b) as much as I respect many people involved in that church (Ed+ used to be dean at my own former parish of St. Andrew&#8217;s Cathedral here in Mississippi; Susan+ heads up Integrity, where I used to be diocesan network coordinator), I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d fit in very well over there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mermade</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-121693</link>
		<dc:creator>Mermade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/10/01/jesus-doesnt-care-who-the-caesar-is-some-thoughts-on-the-latest-phase-in-the-all-saints-quarrel/#comment-121693</guid>
		<description>Well said. One of the reasons, I think, why a lot of kids in my generation are confused about religion is precisely because of politics. Political parties use God to manipulate their voters into thinking that they and they alone are the one God wants in office. Most of us HATE Bush. We see a president who uses Christianity to justify war, arrogance and indifference to public opinion. I wonder what Jesus would say if he came down and had a look at the profound messes we've made in His name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said. One of the reasons, I think, why a lot of kids in my generation are confused about religion is precisely because of politics. Political parties use God to manipulate their voters into thinking that they and they alone are the one God wants in office. Most of us HATE Bush. We see a president who uses Christianity to justify war, arrogance and indifference to public opinion. I wonder what Jesus would say if he came down and had a look at the profound messes we&#8217;ve made in His name.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
