FWIW, after reading various people’s explanations of their various varieties of BDSM kinks, I’ve come to realize that the aspect of BDSM that is the main squick for me isn’t so much the pain, still less the bondage, as the degradation. So some of the play-acting I’ve heard described actually squicks me more than, say, spanking.

There is a difference between degradation and shaming - I’m cool with the first but detest the second - but people practice both.

What’s the difference? Because, the way I tend to use the words, degradation is shaming to the nth degree - so obviously I must be thinking of the words differently from you.

BDSMers who insist what they’re really doing is “Christian Domestic Discipline” is like those guys who claim to be straight because they only receive blowjobs.

Frankly, “Christian Domestic Discipline” would be less icky if it were promoted as a way of combining Christianity and kink - at least, from that point of view, the wife gets to set the boundaries of how much “domestic discipline” she actually wants (or reject it altogether, if she doesn’t want any of it).

But this is about a christian couple. Let’s look at Martha and Mary, a good lesbian Christian couple who believe in equality and thus call it “a partnership” because each brings what they are able to the relationship and they discuss that aspect. They also like to truss each other up and have some fun with the hitachi magic wand.

As Christians, in Eph, spouses are called to submit themselves on to another - certainly an aspect of sexual play within this Christian context would be to be mindful of what gives pleasure to your partner while they understand your limits in doing so and vice versa. Yes, I can see that some aspects the idea of dominance or being better could creep in; the same way though the new testament tells us that in Christ there is no seperation between male and female, rich and poor, race and background they managed to creep in and usually are present in some aspects of every congregation. Yet, if both partners (much as a congregation) is aware of this problem, and discuss it; where is the difficulty?

Is this something that is an exclusive hetero issue? If over the years I found that my partner liked being spanked during an extended sexual session - I would spank her. Why wouldn’t I? I love her and would want her to be happy in our sexual play together. I don’t understand why me giving her a foot massage=okay; me licking her entire body=okay while me spanking her=bad.

I still wonder what the long-term effects are, even with such precautions.

Me too, Rob. I’ve chosen to simply keep an eye on it and be constantly vigilant. The older folks I know in the scene don’t seem more messed up than anyone else, though.

“I do find that, as the officially dominant partner, I have to sometimes remind myself that my boyfriend is not “lesser” and we are not doing this because of any natural power imbalance between us.”

This is exactly the sort of precaution that I think would be needed. All my friends say I spent too long as a paramedic, but I think my belief that intelligent people able to do as you do are few and far between.

I still wonder what the long-term effects are, even with such precautions. Then again, with all the other crap we’re exposed to in the media, there are probably bigger things to worry about.

The way to defend BDSM is not to define it out of existence.

Sophonisba, thanks for making those points. For some of us, pain and/or degradation really is what we do. (There is a difference between degradation and shaming - I’m cool with the first but detest the second - but people practice both.)

Some people go into a headspace when given bdsm pain, but others don’t, and the headspace is different for everyone. When I hurt my boyfriend, it’s consensual, and sensual, and done for (ultimately) mutual enjoyment, but it does hurt. It’s challenging.

I do find that, as the officially dominant partner, I have to sometimes remind myself that my boyfriend is not “lesser” and we are not doing this because of any natural power imbalance between us. We’re just doing it because we have corresponding kinks. But the dynamic can take on a life of its own.

However, in my previous relationships, which were all “vanilla” (an offensive term, so I apologize for any offense), I naturally viewed myself as lesser and my desires as unimportant relative to those of my partner. Even my ways of fighting and trying to get my way were those of a low-status person (e.g., passive aggression, nagging, hinting). And I’m a relatively self-aware, smart feminist - not exactly Edith Bunker. So for me, this has been liberating, and very much worth the struggles.

Plus, we are just having an awesome time together.

I guess it’s like a Friars Club Roast………….some actual abuse takes place but it’s all in fun, right?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!

(That’s the sound of me boring myself)

We learn things on a non-conscious level. We call it intuition. The problem is, our intuition isn’t always learning what we think it is. What our conscious mind thinks it is learning isn’t necessarily what our unconscious mind is really learning.

What are people learning as a part of BDSM? They think it is harmless, but is it really? Are they learning attitudes toward men and women that consciously they deny, but actually influence their decisions?

I refuse to play violent video games as a result. I do not know what my brain is learning if I point a virtual gun at a virtual someone and kill them.

We are far less self-aware than we think. We have far less free will than we think. I am beginning to wonder just how hard we should be fighting for our personal mental territory.

There’s a test. You get a list of items that you have to sort into two categories. In the first test, you put either “good” or “white” items in the left column or “bad” or “black” in the right column. Then the next time, you put either “good” or “black” items in the left column or “bad” or “white” in the right column. The tests are timed; even intervals on a particular question are timed. What you’re actually measuring is how your brain deals with race on an unconscious intuitive level. For the most part, you can’t fake the results.

There is one way to game the system, though. If you sit there and, before you take the test, deliberately think about good African-Americans — Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, etc. — you will have less trouble putting “black” and “good” concepts in the same column.

What would happen if you gave such a test to BDSM people to measure their attitudes toward men and women? Would they score the same as non-BDSM people, or differently — and if differently, how?

My guess is, depending on the form BDSM takes, it might be teaching the non-conscious mind things that the person does not intend for it to learn — or wish it to learn. For some, the paraphilia may be benign. I suspect that for others, it’s not.

Of course, then the question is, are they into BDSM because of previous attitudes or is the BDSM creating the attitudes.

I wonder if the research has already been done. Getting accurate results might be difficult, but I see no reason why it couldn’t be done.

I’m speechless, and yes, horrified.