I got a long email from a woman I’ll call “Kendra”. Here’s some of it:
I’m writing you because I’d like to get your thoughts on a major frustration I’ve had for a while (if you have time or feel so compelled).
I’m a 32 year old graduate student in electrical engineering. I’ll be finishing my masters next spring, and then I know I want to get a PhD…
It really stinks being a woman who is pursuing an advanced degree in engineering (or physics, which was my undergraduate area). It is even worse as you get older. I have two very close friends, both of whom are women. However, I don’t see them often.
Most time is spent around my “peers”, who are often 10 years younger than myself and almost entirely male. Most guys that age seem a bit phobic of girls and women. Age-wise, I am as old or older than most of the junior faculty in the department. However, none of the faculty seem terribly interested in being friendly. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. If I walk into the lunchroom when the faculty are there, they often stop talking as long as I am there. I honestly can’t tell if it’s the fact that I’m “just a student” or if it’s because I’m female, or possibly both. Either way, I wish I could blend into the wall. It’s obvious that they know I’m there, but also as obvious that they have no desire to include me.
I also don’t have a terribly easy time relating to other people outside of school. I hate to say it, but it seems like the stereotype of the engineer without any social skills is true. So much of what I do is wrapped up in my work that I can’t seem to relate to most people effectively. Although I’m a social butterfly by engineering standards (probably too much so since I’m rather talkative once you get me going), but I am often perceived (especially by other women) as “showing off” simply by discussing things that interest me. The feeling I get is that it’s okay for men to be engineers and talk about that “technical stuff”, but not for women.
I really hate being in this position.
No matter which path I follow career-wise, I sense that I’m always going to be caught in this limbo where people don’t fully accept me as a peer because I am different. I’m either older, younger, female, married with kids, a student, (someday) faculty, what have you…and this cuts off a lot of options for friendships. It’s very isolating and makes me wonder what I am paying in order to have the career I’ve been trying to work toward for so long. I would hope that going someplace else may change some of that, but I’m really not sure.
Does this ever change? Once I have my PhD, will faculty magically start treating me like a peer? Or will other students distance themselves even more because I crossed that imaginary line?
I don’t have an easy answer for Kendra. My Ph.D. was in the humanities, and I went through a graduate program that was evenly divided between men and women who were almost all my chronological peers. We were a gossipy, emotionally entangled lot.
I had a good friend a few years ago who was a Caltech graduate student (I can’t remember exactly what she did. It had “materials” in the name). My friend was, like Kendra, in her early thirties and one of the only women in her program. She also felt isolated from both her peers and her professors. Her fellow graduate students either had obvious schoolboy crushes on her, or they ignored her, unsure of what to do with a woman in what they clearly thought of as “male space.” Her male professors tended to treat her with exaggerated formality, always civil and encouraging, but also a bit distant. She noticed that her chief supervisor regularly went out for beers with some of his male graduate students, but never invited her — out of fear, she suspected, that he might misinterpret an invitation as an inappropriate advance. She was never once sexually harassed — but she found the “walking on eggshells” treatment to be almost as frustrating.
We need to acknowledge that graduate school can be a terrifying business. Working on a Ph.D. in any field is frightening; no matter what your topic or your field, there’s always the fear that your research won’t pan out, that you’ll end up in a dead end, or — worst of all — you’ll discover at the last minute that some other grad student at another university just did their doctoral work on exactly the same thing, and finished a month before you did. Add to that the financial strain that graduate education almost invariably imposes, throw in some family responsibilities, and the whole thing can be fairly wretched. I spent years oscillating between intellectual elation and debilitating anxiety, between authentic cameraderie with my fellows and bitter competitiveness. It was a tough time, and I think it is almost certainly worse for women in male-dominated fields.
As for the questions Kendra asks, I can say that in my experience — and, anecdotally, in the experience of most of my fellow graduate students — things do change once you get the Ph.D. I was never especially close to my dissertation supervisor, though we certainly got along quite well. At the moment he signed my completed dissertation, with all my exams and research and writing done, he said to me just one word: “welcome.” Not “congratulations”, or “well done”, but “welcome.” I already had tenure here at Pasadena City College (even though I technically had only an MA), but in his eyes it seemed, getting the Ph.D. was a hurdle I had to get over in order to become his peer. Honestly, “welcome” was the word I most wanted to hear at that moment. It was the recognition not just of a significant accomplishment, but of belonging.
Of course, once you have the Ph.D. you cease to be a student like other students — even if you’re doing a post-doc somewhere rather than actually joining the professoriate. My friends in the sciences who are doing post-doctoral research (but not teaching, and not being paid as full-time academics) often do report feeling a bit “betwixt and between”. On the one hand, they’ve achieved the highest standard the western academy offers, and on the other, they’re not climbing the tenure ladder and they don’t yet have students of their own. Whatever your sex, whatever your age, it can be a rough time.
But in the end, things do get better. And in the sciences, they have started to get dramatically better for women. The percentage of women receiving advanced degrees in the hard sciences, mathematics, and engineering has climbed considerably in recent years. Caltech now is over 40% female, three times what it was just a quarter-century ago. At times, the continued obstacles all around us blind us to the happy reality that we have already come so far. And though women in science and engineering continue to experience the kind of treatment that Kendra writes about, that sense of isolation will decrease as more and more women like her continue to work for the Ph.D. and continue to take post-docs and tenure-track jobs.
I remember very well one thing my old friend from Caltech said to me: “Sometimes, when it gets really bad, I tell myself I’m taking this shit so other women who come after me won’t have to.” It’s hard to be a pioneer, and it’s hard to carry the burden of being a “change agent.” But sticking with it gives others the inspiration to follow in your footsteps. And as more and more women come into the sciences, as math and engineering departments cease to be all-male enclaves, the sense of isolation that “geek women” experience will inevitably diminish. And though that may not be much comfort to Kendra now, in the long run, I hope that it will be.
Kendra, check out this solution to the isolation of geek women engineers:
http://www.swe.org
If your school doesn’t have a chapter, maybe you could start one. The age difference issue is a different beast, though. As a side note, 30 years ago, my brother joined with several other male students. That’s how he met his Rocket Scientist wife. She’s the opposite of the lack of social skills stereotype, and has now entered a career in politics.
it really depends on the institution too. some places are full of students who took time off between schooling. where i’m at, getting my phd in biophysics, 32 years old isn’t remarkable at all for the grad students. in fact, it’s strange when students are young.
but i agree with hugo that once you get the phd it will be different. altho not on the female front, esp if you intend to become faculty–very few academics in the sciences/eng are female (as you well know) and THAT is not changing dramatically.
I second the motion for SWE - Society of Women Engineers. Even though I’m an IT geek not an engineer, it is refreshing to attend their monthly dinner meetings and talk with other “smart” women. For years I was the only woman in science classes. Now IT is at least 50% women in my company and in the profession. Another professional organization I enjoy is Project Management Institute http://www.pmi.org. If none of this works, get some counseling or life coaching to improve your social skills. Historical note: 40 years ago I taught several of the guys in my high school physics class to knit as well as tutoring them for the tests.
Kendra might also consider looking at different schools. In mathematics and philosophy, the most prestigious departments and graduate programmes are often the most sexist (and racist and classist to boot). But, if you drop down into the teens and twenties on the appropriate disciplinary prestige ladder, there are often at least a few departments that are much more welcoming to women and other `minorities’.
There are important trade-offs, of course. A student coming into my current programme (Ph.D in philosophy) with a master’s gets, at most, credit for a handful of the large number of required seminars. That means they start their Ph.D maybe six months earlier than they would have otherwise. Kendra should make sure to ask how much work she’ll be required to do before she’s allowed to start on her dissertation. And, of course, a degree from a less-prestigious department will mean a less-prestigious job. If Kendra wants to end up a professor at, say, MIT, she probably won’t be able to get there with a Ph.D from, say, UC Davis. Maybe this isn’t a big deal for her, but maybe it is.
I believe that the issues raised are real and important. Looking at professional connections as has been noted is a good idea.
My sense though is that Kendra, and others like her, face a sexist world and a narrow world which limits their social/romantic options greatly. The solution(s) to me, if any, relate to finding “other worlds” to find meaningful social ties in. This may not be easy of course.
Such ties would need to help one find others of a similar age range in similar circumstances. Areas this might be in could include various hobby type areas - folk dancing, recreational sports (softball leagues example), and other such areas as well as possibly some - religion based groups - (If not “religious” - might find alternative religions - Unitarians, etc.).
The common need I see is to expand one’s efforts - which takes valuable time, explore and take risks - but really not many risks, if the things done are enjoyable for the person in of itself. It is pointless to play softball, if one doesn’t enjoy it. Hanging out at art museums may be pointless if “eligible men” aren’t meetable there.
Good Luck (to Kendra and others) ! Thanks!
She noticed that her chief supervisor regularly went out for beers with some of his male graduate students, but never invited her — out of fear, she suspected, that he might misinterpret an invitation as an inappropriate advance. She was never once sexually harassed — but she found the “walking on eggshells” treatment to be almost as frustrating.
Hmmm.
Well, ya’ll made that environment.
This is not a direct suggestion to Kendra, only a general comment from my own experience.
I read for my degree at one of the UK’s top universities, which is often accused of upholding habits typical of a patriarchal, elitist etc past. In the year below me (this was not so long ago), there was maybe one female engineering student for every seven male. This meant one sole female engineer at my own college.
She was absolutely the darling of her peers, and widely popular outside her subject group as well. She was quite pretty, which probably helped, especially initially - but she was respected for being a good engineer, and I suspect above all, for being a really good sport in a genuine kind of way - a great “mate” (=buddy) who was not acting up to either feminine or masculine stereotypes, just being her warm self.
I myself am a social scientist, but in a subfield where even in the US only 1/3 of academics are women, and all I and most of my female friends have had from our professors is encouragement and lament that not more women are interested in further study in this subfield. I am now a postdoc at another top university, and the faculty have been incredibly open to me - really going out of their way to make me feel at home among them. Certainly treating me as their peer.
Anecdote doesn’t make data, of course, but I’m hoping that these experiences are symptomatic of a wider ctrend. I do hope that Kendra finds a supportive faculty too where she can feel included and at home. And in the meanwhile, I would try and find a more senior woman in the field who could act as a mentor figure.
Well, ya’ll made that environment.
Indeed! How often do we feminists opine, “Treat me like an sex object, or treat me like a pariah! Just, whatever you do, don’t treat me like anybody else! For god’s sake, don’t treat me like every other grad student! Demean me and set me apart because I’m a woman! If you can’t do it by harassing me, at least have the decency to do it by excluding me from everyday social occasions!”
Why, that’s what we’ve been striving for all along! After all, how many times have we had to file lawsuits against people who treated us as normal, unremarkable equals by inviting us along on non-sexual group social occasions with many of our peers? Too many to count!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All these people who are afraid of having something blown out of proportion, being falsely accused of something, etc. etc. etc. - they are just hallucinating. It’s a conspiracy of da man to keep a womyn down!
All ancedotal.
Pshaw.
Never, EVER happens.
And you know what is ironic as hell? I (The royal “We,” my company) have a contract to do network support at a major corporation here in the Southern Indiana region, and I service seven sites. One of the policies that came out this summer there, to avolid lawsuits, is to not counsel employees of the opposite sex in a closed door, one on one session.
This policy was promulgated by their Legal and HR department.
Their assistant director of HR, who was one of the author’s of this policy? Know what her undergraduate degree is in? Displayed prominently on her wall?
“Women’s Studies.”
The point being, though, that if you go to your hall closet (Like I can do mine) reach on the top shelf, pull down the box with your iron in it, you might have on there (Like I do on mine) a warning that says “Do not iron clothes in shower” or “Do not use this device on clothes you are wearing.” And it’s there because some imbecile, somewhere, has done just that and sued the hell out of the manufacturer.
Now even giving credence to the notion that such suits are “Oh, so rare” bet me whether it’s more likely such suits would have the name listed as “Attorney foir the Plaintiff” (A) Gloria Allred, or (B) Marc Angelucci.
Yes. Ya’ll.
Gonzman:
I like how your lengthy comment had not one single thing to do with “Kendra’s” situation.
You remember, “Kendra”? Who wasn’t complaining about not being asked out to one-on-one drinking sessions? Who wasn’t complaining about advisors keeping their office doors open when she was with them? Who wasn’t complaining about any contact or lack of contact she got from individual professors she was alone with? Who wasn’t complaining about male professors trying to avoid the appearance of impropriety by not singling her out for private encounters? Who was only upset about her exclusion from groups of her peers and teachers?
The reason that your note of triumph does not apply here is because, the onward march of feminism not withstanding, this doesn’t happen to most women unless they are in heavily male-dominated professions or departments. “Kendra” is getting a shitty deal because she is in an overwhelmingly male department, where the tendency of men to exclude her is compounded by the tendency of grad students to want to socialize with people their own age. Female grad students in less fucked-up departments go out for drinks with each other and with professors, in groups, all the time. Yes, really. Even when there are remnants of sexism, as there are most places, they are treated as peers, not isolated freaks. Treating women as ordinary co-workers or students is, whatever you may think, normal and expected. That is why it is a big deal when they aren’t.
One of the policies that came out this summer there, to avolid lawsuits, is to not counsel employees of the opposite sex in a closed door, one on one session.
Actually, although it’s charming that you think lawsuits are the only things being guarded against, this is also a good way to avoid sexual harassment, whether or not the theoretical victim chooses to file a lawsuit over it.
And if keeping the door cracked open is such a horrific imposition that only a fiendishly stupid women’s studies major could have thought of it–well. It may be useless, it may be unhelpful. What it is not, though, is burdensome to anybody who doesn’t have a persecution complex. Unlike excluding women from routine group social situations, it is not harmful, and it is not a big deal.
Gonzman:
I like how your lengthy comment had not one single thing to do with “Kendra’s” situation…… Who was only upset about her exclusion from groups of her peers and teachers?
Ahem. I quote:
but never invited her — out of fear, she suspected, that he might misinterpret an invitation as an inappropriate advance. She was never once sexually harassed — but she found the “walking on eggshells” treatment to be almost as frustrating.
In fact, I did read.
You stand corrected.
And if keeping the door cracked open is such a horrific imposition that only a fiendishly stupid women’s studies major could have thought of it–well. It may be useless, it may be unhelpful. What it is not, though, is burdensome to anybody who doesn’t have a persecution complex. Unlike excluding women from routine group social situations, it is not harmful, and it is not a big deal.
And you miss the point - unsurprising.
My one on one counselling sessions are moments to establish rapport, to coach, to deliver “attaboys” as much as things to work on. Requiring open doors, witnesses - these produce distance. They promote EXclusion, not inclusion. It emphasises freakishness, and does not promote treating female employees like their males counterparts. It says, “Take care. Kid Gloves. Special Treatment.” The notion of “The Other. Not to be fully trusted.”
If you’re jiggy with that, I am. No skin off my butt.
Still remains, though - there’s a reason why the is a climate that has a fear of lawsuits. Wonder why?
“I’m a 32 year old graduate student in electrical engineering”…”I have two very close friends, both of whom are women. However, I don’t see them often … I’m either older, younger, female, married with kids, a student, (someday) faculty,…”
Because her situation keeps “Kendra” from interacting with her close friends, she is missing them. She wants to make new friends with both her fellow students and her faculty. It would be interesting to know her friends’ ages, backgrounds, and life stage they are in. I would guess that her friends are somewhere between mid-20s to mid-30s. They most likely are in or have been in a serious romantic relationship which includes marriage or cohabitation. “Kendra” and her close friends, most likely, can closely relate to each others’ life experiences and interests.
“Most time is spent around my ‘peers’, who are often 10 years younger than me and almost entirely male.”
I am an electrical engineer in my mid-40s and I am around a lot of early-20s engineers at work. Of these younger engineers, around 75% are men and 25% are women. The younger engineers rarely socialize with their co-workers that are ten or more years older than themselves. They are almost all single and most of the older engineers, like me, are married with children. So I understand “Kendra’s” problems making friends with her younger fellow students. I usually talk with the younger engineers about work or hobbies. I would guess that if “Kendra” brought up the topic of computer games (World of Warcraft, etc.) with several of her peers that most, if not all, of them would join into the conversation.
“Age-wise, I am as old or older than most of the junior faculty in the department. However, none of the faculty seem terribly interested in being friendly. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. If I walk into the lunchroom when the faculty are there, they often stop talking as long as I am there. I honestly can’t tell if it’s the fact that I’m ‘just a student’ or if it’s because I’m female, or possibly both.”
It is most likely both, more the fact that you are a student. Do an experiment and see what happens when other students enter the lunchroom instead of you.
“I am often perceived (especially by other women) as ‘showing off’ simply by discussing things that interest me. The feeling I get is that it’s okay for men to be engineers and talk about that ‘technical stuff’, but not for women.”
The problem is that Kendra is “talking shop” to people that either do not understand or care to understand her main interests. I found that I can usually “talk shop” to other engineers and people in the hard sciences, accounting, or economics. People that work in areas where most of the work is quantified and mathematically manipulated. When in conservations with people, she needs to figure out shared interests to talk about. If her talking companions are not “technical”, they will usually not be interested in talking about “technical stuff.”
“Does this ever change? Once I have my PhD, will faculty magically start treating me like a peer”
As a Peer, most of them, yes. As a close friend, most of them, no.
“Or will other students distance themselves even more because I crossed that imaginary line”
Yes.
Still remains, though - there’s a reason why the is a climate that has a fear of lawsuits. Wonder why?
Because it’s a much handier and more plausible excuse for treating those annoying females differently. Oh, yes, we’d just love to give you the same attention and mentorship as a male grad student! Honest! It’s just that you might accuse us of some dastardly crime, so as much as this pains us, we’ll have to continue focusing our attention on the guys just like we always have.
Because if you think for a moment, you’d realize that male students, too, could make accusations of harassment. A male grad student could falsely claim that behind closed doors, Dr. Tweedjacket told him he’d better get out the kneepads if he expected a good review on his thesis, or that at one of those nights out with a beer, the student left his advisor alone with a drink, and woke up the next morning naked and sore with a pounding headache.
No, the ‘fear of harassment’ excuses are really more of the angry reaction to women suggesting they don’t want special and demeaning treatment: You’ll stay on that pedestal, ladies, or all bets are off.
Mmmm.
So, you are in the “Never, EVER, happens” camp, then, eh?
Do you believe that it never, EVER happens that a male graduate student would accuse a professor of harassment or assault? Do you believe that a professor harassing or assaulting a grad student never, EVER happens and that anyone claiming her professor hit on her is always, ALWAYS lying?
And do you believe that somebody who is maliciously inventing charges of harassment is going to be stopped dead in her tracks because her intended victim leaves his door open during meetings?
Mythago, you’re right. Closing the office door is not foolproof protection against a harassment charge from a student/supervisee/mentee of the opposite sex.
A very good argument for not having the student/supervisee/mentee of the opposite sex in the office at all. Were I a professor/supervisor/mentor, that’d certainly be my policy. I also wouldn’t have an openly gay male StuSuMe (if I may coin an abbreviation) in my office either. I suppose it’s still possible a closeted gay male StuSuMe could make an accusation, but if that were the case I’d rely on my status as a widowed former husband, father of two and a guy who is genuinely known to date women to help protect my reputation and boister my defense. You play the odds as best you can in these situations, and in our hypersensitized, litigous times I’m going to err on the side of caution.
I’d feel very bad if a woman or openly gay StuSuMe missed out on something I had to offer as a result. It’d be a shame if a genuinely hard working, eager to learn StuSuMe didn’t get the full benefit of the college experience or work experience or after school program experience because of my need to cover my ass. But then I’d remember my two children I mentioned earlier, whose welfare are always my first priority and who rely on my having a job and a decent reputation. And I’d remember my own welfare, a close second priority. And I’d remember that neither I nor anybody like me created this atmosphere between men and women. Then I’d go home and sleep well at night.
Do you believe that it never, EVER happens that a male graduate student would accuse a professor of harassment or assault?
It’s so rare, obviously, that it is not worried about. Of course it doesn’t help that a male student would almost universally be accused of being a closeted homosexual if they did complain, even - nay, ESPECIALLY if true.
Including by feminists.
Do you believe that a professor harassing or assaulting a grad student never, EVER happens
Sure does happen, to male and female students alike by male and female teachers.
and that anyone claiming her professor hit on her is always, ALWAYS lying?
Apparently happens with enough frequency that “appearance of evil” policies are enacted.
Or are you suggesting these things happen in a vacuum, or are a result of some propeller-headed “Great Patriarchal Conspiracy” ™ plot for da man to keep da woman down? (Damn, that’s what I get for missing meetings of the International Brotherhood of He-Man Woman Haters…)
And do you believe that somebody who is maliciously inventing charges of harassment is going to be stopped dead in her tracks because her intended victim leaves his door open during meetings?
Well, in fact I do believe that if I take proper precautions any such charges will be more easily refuted by an exponential order of magnitude.
But I notice you didn’t have the hair to answer MY questions.
I suppose it’s still possible a closeted gay male StuSuMe could make an accusation
Ah, but he wouldn’t have to be gay. He’d just have to say you were. And of course, nowadays we have female professors, so he wouldn’t even have to be worried about picking a man as his target!
(And I thought we feminazis were the ones who were all huggin’ on the queers? Not on the Gonz Planet, I guess.)
But I notice you didn’t have the hair to answer MY questions.
Tsk. When you dodge my questions, you pout and accuse me of trying to make you follow a script. Yet when you pose a have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife question you think you’re a prosecutor on Law & Order.
Do some students–male and female–make false accusations of harassment? Indeed they do. But what you gents are proposing is not really “take sensible precautions”. It’s the angry attitude that women either have to be treated like ladies, or treated like trash. The punishment for women daring to complain that they shouldn’t be treated like airheads or fuck-toys is being cut out of the academic loop entirely.
But I guess that, as usual, it’s better to blame the cunts instead of blaming the people who created this atmosphere. That’d be the predators we mentioned earlier. But we can’t have that, because if we think one man has ever been bad we’re all feminazis, aren’t we?
I suppose it’s still possible a closeted gay male StuSuMe could make an accusation
Ah, but he wouldn’t have to be gay. He’d just have to say you were. And of course, nowadays we have female professors, so he wouldn’t even have to be worried about picking a man as his target!
But I notice you didn’t have the hair to answer MY questions.
Tsk. When you dodge my questions, you pout and accuse me of trying to make you follow a script. Yet when you pose a have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife question you think you’re a prosecutor on Law & Order.
Do some students–male and female–make false accusations of harassment? Indeed they do. But what you gents are proposing is not really “take sensible precautions to make sure nobody accuses you of abusing your authority”; you’re jumping up and down with glee at the notion of punishing all female students because some have made accusations of harassment that weren’t true. (The fact that some accusations are true is, I suppose, beyond comprehension.)
Tsk. When you dodge my questions, you pout and accuse me of trying to make you follow a script. Yet when you pose a have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife question you think you’re a prosecutor on Law & Order.
Tsk, yourself. You’re in a snit because your political stance of “nope, nope, never happens” is demonstrated as absurd in the extreme by posing a direct “Yes or No” question, which is why you resent it being asked.
Do some students–male and female–make false accusations of harassment? Indeed they do.
Heh. Be neat to see the percentages of how that breaks down, eh wot?
But what you gents are proposing is not really “take sensible precautions to make sure nobody accuses you of abusing your authority”; you’re jumping up and down with glee at the notion of punishing all female students because some have made accusations of harassment that weren’t true.
Not precisely. What I am in glee over is not the fact that some women are suffering from it, but that it is an unintended consequence from things we warned long ago would happen.
(The fact that some accusations are true is, I suppose, beyond comprehension.)
No more so than the fact that some are true is beyond compassion from you.
EDIT
(The fact that some accusations are true is, I suppose, beyond comprehension.)
No more so than the fact that some are false is beyond compassion from you.
Nice Freudian slip there, Gonz.
You’re in a snit because your political stance of “nope, nope, never happens”
Where did I say “never happens”? Oh, that’s right–I said exactly the opposite.
What I am in glee over is not the fact that some women are suffering from it, but that it is an unintended consequence from things we warned long ago would happen.
It’s not an unintended consequence; it’s a deliberate choice.
Nice Freudian slip there, Gonz.
Actually, a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.
Where did I say “never happens”? Oh, that’s right–I said exactly the opposite.
You subscribe to a political philosophy which denies false accusations, or pronounces them to be of such inconsequential percentages as to be not worth worrying about.
Apparently, when one gets in the real world, and away from Ivory Towers of Theory, things are a bit different.
It’s not an unintended consequence; it’s a deliberate choice.
As said above, it’s Feminists with Women’s Studies Degrees making those policies. :D I mean, hell, far, far better than to admit that “Hey - there actually are women who do make such false claims as a means of (_____insert reason________)” - no, instead, never admit you might be wrong - make corporate policies that truly do make women outsiders, and receiving of special treatment.
Boyo, there’s a solution. Of course, it’s another way to insure that they still have something to complain about, too, so might be crazy like a fox, eh wot?
Of course, it also avoids the dilemma of having to adopt the knee-jerk, blinkered “Believe your Sister, no matter how patently bogus her claims may be” and still allows you to go after the man for “violating policy” so I guess it does follow.
Mythago is having trouble posting, the following is hers, not mine:
You subscribe to a political philosophy which denies false accusations, or pronounces them to be of such inconsequential percentages as to be not worth worrying about.
In other words, what I actually say or believe doesn’t matter; I’m a feminist, therefore you can simply invent what you think I should say or believe? If I applied that same standard to you, you’d be huffing and puffing.
While false accusations from a male student might be “rare” (how rare, we don’t know, since nobody’s put up actual numbers for anything), are you going to tell me they NEVER, EVER happen? Or that a false accusation would not devastate a professor’s career? One would think that in an abundance of caution, professors (male and female) would institute doors-open, no-intimate-dinners, etc policies across the board.
Reserving them for women only, and using them as excuses to short female students on mentoring, makes it quite clear that what’s going on is not really self-protection. It’s one more excuse seized on by mentors who really would rather hang with the guys.
(And, while you don’t seem to care much about *actual* harassment, which you apparently believe never, EVER happens, such cautions by professors would also tend to short out real predators. It’s a little harder for Professor O’Creepy to shut her door for ‘private talks’ with her male grad students if she knows people will look askance at that shut door.)
In other words, what I actually say or believe doesn’t matter; I’m a feminist, therefore you can simply invent what you think I should say or believe? If I applied that same standard to you, you’d be huffing and puffing.
I’m a Catholic and a Libertarian, I not only put that out, but also state very clearly what I do or do not believe, and make no bones about “pulling someone’s card” instead of weaselling and rationalizing “Not Every Catholic thinks alike.”
True to a certain extent. When they deny the Nicene Creed, though I’m not going to call them brother or sister.
While false accusations from a male student might be “rare” (how rare, we don’t know, since nobody’s put up actual numbers for anything), are you going to tell me they NEVER, EVER happen? Or that a false accusation would not devastate a professor’s career? One would think that in an abundance of caution, professors (male and female) would institute doors-open, no-intimate-dinners, etc policies across the board.
Well, you know, one would think that. Apparently, though, the amount of false accusations from male students on female teachers is so small so as to be off the radar as to people worrying about it.
Sorry about that, but it sure seems to be what happens when the rubber meets the road. You play the odds. This is how the odds play out. Gonzo didn’t issue that edict.
There’s a reason for it. You put that reason down to some propeller hatted Great Patriarchal Conspiracy ™.
Reserving them for women only, and using them as excuses to short female students on mentoring, makes it quite clear that what’s going on is not really self-protection. It’s one more excuse seized on by mentors who really would rather hang with the guys.
Long as we got feminists talking about how much men can gain from being falsely accused, and the accompanying silent assent from the peanut gallery….
I got Falsely accused. Thank God I tape my private meetings. Even so, it was hushed up because of the “chilling effect” actually punishing a liar would have on other “victims.” Yeah - I gained something positivge - I learned how this PC crap works in real life as opposed to the BS rationalization about it, and vowed never again.
And say what you want - avoiding the appearance of and the near occasion of sure does WORK. Kind of hard to accuse me of fondling you if I keep our meetings in an open, glass windowed conference room for all to see, ain’t it?
Yeah, I know - “Lumping all women…” I’ll tell you what; you go to that frat party and get staggering drunk, and trust those nice boys to put you to bed and prove how you don’t “lump all men…” then get back with me and tell me how it worked for ya.
(And, while you don’t seem to care much about *actual* harassment, which you apparently believe never, EVER happens,
Bull.
A little due process, some proof - THEN I’ll join you in smearing the SOB’s name. Pardon the hell out of me if joining a witch hunt a la Duke offends my sense of justice. Last I heard in America, we kind of put the whole sentence thing after the trial, not the accusation, and even then only if a conviction results from said Trial.
Or is there a feminist version of “Amerika” I’m not familiar with?
such cautions by professors would also tend to short out real predators.
Gee, fancy that. Imagine - don’t go into a private tete-a-tete, and nobody ever questions what goes on in there. Who’d have thunk? Wow, that’s cray enough to work.
Unless you’re a man protecting yourself, then, of course you’re just a sexist so-and-so whose only motivations are malicious.
It’s a little harder for Professor O’Creepy to shut her door for ‘private talks’ with her male grad students if she knows people will look askance at that shut door.)
And of course, if almost fifty Gonzo goes into a private session with some sweet young thang, nobody will EVER raise an eyebrow.
Give me a break, Myth.