Another reason why I have my critical barbs against that site as well.

Actually, yes, those women who talk as if choosing mates badly is an especially male failing (such as, for example, the sort of woman that says that men, and only men, just want “cute but dumb,” as if no woman ever cared more about a man’s looks than his brains), and who then feel all aggrieved about it, deserve the same sort of criticism as the “Nice Guys.”

Really though.. Sometimes the answer to or the reason for an issue is not “well they do it too!”. I get that from my kids a lot.

“Well they do it too!” is absolutely the right answer to an issue if the failing is being represented as an especially feminine one, when it’s actually more of a regular old human one. Such as, for example, when someone frames the question as “why women like bad boys,” instead of, “why do some people choose mates who are bad for them,” and perhaps even follows up with all sorts of evolutionary reasons why women supposedly want to be treated like shit. Once you acknowledge that men do it too, you might just realize that women, like men, might have regular old human reasons for picking bad boys, rather than especially feminine masochistic ones; namely, most of the time, when people (men or women) do pick people who are bad for them, those people have the compensating advantage of being pretty darn cute.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Insert broad and unfounded generalization about the type of women I must date, and their “issues,” and append smug and self-righteous snarky comment, one, standard issue.

I know some women are “nice girls” when it comes to dating, but overall women aren’t socialized to think they’re entitled to someone else. Women are socialized to blame themselves - so when they’re rejected they think “What’s wrong with me” instead of “What’s wrong with him?” I know a lot of women who have the complaint that men want the big-chested barbie types, but instead of them outwardly complaining they’ll try hard to meet that standard of looks.

“Really though.. Sometimes the answer to or the reason for an issue is not “well they do it too!”. I get that from my kids a lot. ”

If you realize that it’s not a gender thing to choose someone who is attractive over someone who is nice, then why debate it as if it is? Why do men act like it’s such a huge affront to them when it happens to them as opposed to when it happens to women?

2) Just because a “nice” guy says the girl he wants is dating an asshole doesn’t mean she’s actually dating an asshole unless you consider all other men except him an asshole. Let me tell you how many times I’ve heard this one in my life! Numerous times in high school and college, a guy would say he liked me and I would tell him I had a boyfriend. The guy would immediately say my boyfriend is an asshole who treats me badly. Weird, considering all he knew was that I had a boyfriend and nothing else. I’m sure he’d then go and complain loudly to all who would hear him about girls choosing jerks over nice guys like him.
Then you have the I’m-being-your-friend-so-that-I-can-get-in-your-pants “nice” guy who acts like he’s your friend but he really wants to date you. Since you think he’s your friend you tell him about some fights or problems in your relationship because you want a male perspective. The “nice” guy calls the boyfriend an asshole because he hears her complaints instead of realizing that the boyfriend isn’t an asshole because relationships have flaws, people have flaws, and nothing is perfect. If he dated her there would be times when she’d complain to someone else about him, then he’d be the asshole in some other guy’s eyes. He doesn’t realize that because he’s jealous. But of course, he complains to everyone in the world that the girl he likes is choosing a jerk over a nice guy like him.

3) Most women don’t want assholes and don’t choose assholes. If they happen to date an asshole it’s because A) They didn’t know he was an asshole because he acted nicely to them B) They have issues or C) They’re not “nice” girls.

4) If a woman or teenage girl chooses the exciting, hot guy over the “nice” guy - so what! Guys can’t complain at all here because they do the exact same freakin’ thing!

5) I see a lot of times when “nice” guys pine away for a woman because they project all these qualities onto her that she doesn’t have.
Right now, one of my friends (he’s 40) is trying to date someone who is in her mid-twenties. He’s convinced they’re right for each other. He doesn’t know her that well and if he’d think about what he does know about her, he would realize that they’re not compatible. He’s just going for her because he’s so desperate to have someone that anyone who is remotely nice to him he gloms onto.
And he wants her because she’s hot. He rejected a woman his age who was interested in him because she was “fat” and guess what - he’s fat! And balding! I love how he thinks he’s entitled to someone hot, who puts in time and effort to take care of herself, but he expects her to look past his physical flaws and not expect him to put time and effort into looking good for her. If you want a hottie then be a hottie.

I think the reason why the crap fallacy about women dating jerks is so widespread is because too many men think they’re entitled to women so they have to find someone to blame if they’re not getting women. If women don’t want them then women are stupid/evil/making bad choices/blah blah blah. It’s women’s fault!
Sure, some women are stupid, evil, or make bad choices, but guess what - so do men and you’re the common denominator in your relationships so the problem is probably you. (that was a general you, not a specific you)

This is a deep mystery, because only women are ever attracted to people who are cute, but not so good for them in other ways. Men choose their mates carefully for emotional and financial stability, every time.

Even as teenagers.

Yeah.. of course there are guys that do the bad girl thing too. Hey wait! Does that mean that the women that think this are “Nice Girls” ? Angry because they too aren’t getting any action?

Really though.. Sometimes the answer to or the reason for an issue is not “well they do it too!”. I get that from my kids a lot.

“Why do women like the bad boys” is just another whiny Nice Guy refrain that is UNANSWERABLE because it is simplistic and not true. And the people saying it are usually using it as a stand-in for “Why won’t the particular women I wish would sleep with/date me sleep with/date me??”

Ah yes. The obvious answer to an ridiculous generalization concerning women, is an ridiculous generalization concerning men.

Some may think Nice Guys (however generalized!) aren’t worth the time we might spend on figuring stuff out about them, but some of us think more along the lines of ‘there but for the grace of god go I’ and see connections between men who care about justice and men who might someday care about justice.

Also, regarding this idea:
“These good guys have spent much of their lives focusing on women’s concerns, and have developed the vocabulary of sympathy and solidarity. They have not developed genuine self-awareness in the process.”–Hugo

I think one thing that men who tend to care about the plight of women sometimes forget to do is to take care of themselves, both in terms of being self-aware and in terms of understanding that their needs still mean something, even if they don’t mean everything, as traditional masculinity would have us believe.

I’ve never read Bly, but I thank you for some exposition on him.