This is the first of what I hope will be a successful three-part series. Part two to come next week.
This past week in my “men and masculinity” course, we began discussing Robert Bly’s Iron John. Nearly two decades after it was written, Bly’s alternately captivating and exasperating call for a return to the “deep masculine” still resonates. Many people who know nothing else about the men’s movement (not to be confused with the men’s RIGHTS movement, a different beast altogether) have heard of Bly and “Iron John”. I make sure that my students read Bly in conjunction with very different figures in the movement, like the pro-feminist Michael Kimmel. But as confounding and opaque as Bly’s writing can be, my students seem to enjoy “Iron John” more than any other book I assign in this course.
Re-reading the book in preparation for this week’s lecture, I found myself thinking about the much discussed “Nice Guy” phenomenon. “Nice Guys” often cloak their misogyny behind a facade of sensitivity. “Nice Guys” often talk garrulously about gender issues, and often establish their bona fides by bemoaning the way in which “other guys” treat women. About every ten minutes, a Nice Guy will drop an “But I’m not like other men!” into the conversation. The Nice Guy becomes less nice when he realizes that despite all he obviously has to offer, women are remarkably uninterested in dating or sleeping with him. Nice Guys often lose their temper when rejected, launching into embittered, “slut-bashing” diatribes about how foolish women are for choosing “bad boys” (or traditional men). Most Nice Guys alternate between stunningly low self-esteem and staggering hubris, secretly believing that their “sensitivity” makes them the answer to every maiden’s prayer. A great many feminist women have their share of “Nice Guy” stories, and if you spend much time in the feminist blogosphere, you’ll read your share of ‘em.
Nice Guys are, in a few respects, similar to the famous SNAG (”Sensitive New-Age Guy”) who first made his appearance some four decades ago. SNAGs, I suggest, aren’t automatically as passive-aggressive as Nice Guys; SNAGness is about much more than a tactic to get sex from women. Becoming a male feminist isn’t easy, and most men who start down this road do so with the best of intentions, often with a profound and genuine desire to create a more just world for both sexes. The stereotype that many SNAGs are the sons of single-mothers doesn’t always hold true — but a great many pro-feminist men did grow up acutely aware of their mother’s feelings.
I was raised the first-born son of a single mom; from age six (when my parents separated) on, I was a “student of my mother’s emotions.” My grandmother and aunt told me that I needed to “take care of my mother” after the divorce, as she’d been through a “hard time.” And so, of course, I did my best. While I did often annoy and exasperate my mother (not least when I would torment my little brother), I did become very, very good at taking her emotional temperature. My mother is hardly mercurial (though she is a Gemini), and she was generally on an even keel. But she was anxious about many things, and I picked up on that anxiety very early on. She and I talked a great deal together, and in some ways — especially in the period between the divorce and the onset of my interest in girls about seven years later — my mother was my best friend.
I’ve talked to many other men active in the feminist movement, and a very high number of us have similar stories about our mothers. Let me clear that this isn’t the only reason we remain committed to the feminist movement today. It’s easy to play armchair psychologist and pathologize every activist. An adult commitment to justice is always rooted in more than childhood experience. But one thing I learned about myself a long time ago applies to a great many other men in the movement, including the “SNAGs”: we often confuse verbal dexterity for authentic insight. Our commitment to women’s rights is sincere, but we’re often incapacitated by a surprising lack of self-awareness.
Bly, who is often wrong about the remedy but rarely wrong about the diagnosis, writes of men like this:
Part of their grief rose out of remoteness from their fathers, which they felt keenly, but partly, too, grief flowed from trouble in their marriages or relationships. They had learned to be receptive, but receptivity wasn’t enough to carry their marriages through troubled times. In every relationship something fierce is needed once in a while: both the man and the woman need to have it. But at the point when it was needed, often the young man came up short. He was nurturing, but something else was required — for his relationship, and for his life.
The “soft” male was able to say “I can feel your pain, and I consider your life as important as mine, and I will take care of you and comfort you.” But he could not say what he wanted, and stick by it. Resolve of that kind was a different matter.
Emphasis in the original.
Living a feminist life as a man is about more than sensitivity to women. It’s about more than ideological assent to egalitarian principles, and it’s even about more than putting those principles into practice in one’s public and private life. Part of being a true feminist is acknowledging the enduring reality of male privilege. For men in this society, that means doing the best one can to renounce that privilege. But the danger in that renunciation is that it can destroy the capacity to act. Too many aspiring feminist men, too many nice guys, are incapacitated. They are incapacitated by a fear of doing the wrong thing — and, as Bly points out, deep down they aren’t really sure what they want. These good guys have spent much of their lives focusing on women’s concerns, and have developed the vocabulary of sympathy and solidarity. They have not developed genuine self-awareness in the process.
And this self-awareness is a prerequisite for continued growth. It is the prerequisite for the sort of resolve that Bly mentions. And righteous action, predicated on both empathy for others and upon deep self-awareness, is something far too few men comprehend.
More to come.
I was raised the first-born son of a single mom;
You were also raised the first-born son of a single dad. Oddly, you don’t mention this fact.
My father remarried, Jon, and was a non-custodial parent. He loved me, and did his absolute best to be there for me on his visits, but he didn’t raise me. I do his memory no dishonor when I acknowledge the distinction.
What I liked most about Bly was his irritated awareness that he, as a poet, lacked the technical training to answer the questions he felt needed asking and, especially, to lead a movement he felt needed leadership.
—
To be honest I haven’t read or seen enough of Bly to know if this ties in with his work, but something I’ve been wrestling with recently is the idea that the disconnect between what others see as entitlement men see as worthiness, where “worthiness” is something men must earn, with the added fallacy that what is earned is therefore deserved. With the added, added absurdity that we then get royally ticked off and call women “gatekeepers” when they don’t agree with our non-negotiated-with-them-anyway self-assessments.
For instance words me slaying a dragon might make me feel pretty good, and might even gratify the damsel enormously, but doing so in no way “earns” me a kiss or anything else. However we sort of indoctrinate ourselves to set such terms of our quest for worthiness and then ask women to judge *and reward* our worthiness under those terms. The problem being that outside of very specific student/teacher, athlete/coach, and maybe employee/employer relationships worthiness and judgment aren’t relevant and are probably as inappropriate in a romantic relationship as attempting romance between student and teacher. (For this reason, by the way, slaying a dragon doesn’t even earn me a kiss *if she agrees to kiss me in advance!* It’s still a transaction, an exchange of totally different things: in this case some sort of favor for some sort of sex.)
It’s early days yet, and maybe it won’t pan out, but I’m pretty sure that “worthiness” is to men as the beauty myth is to women — dangled as the key to acceptance but past a very low threshold not really relevant on the other party’s part. (Would another makeover really get you the man of one’s dreams? If you don’t click is it really because you’re not physically beautiful enough? And is lack of a house or a fancier income really why one can’t ask a woman out yet. If she says no is it really because I need a newer BMW? No, no, no, and no.)
Anyway while I’m still digesting I’m pretty sure “worthiness” is ultimately inauthentic and therefore our efforts to seek or, for that matter, judge worthiness are a soul-sapping distraction that we’d need to overcome even if it didn’t cause the resentment/entitlement issues.
I’m really looking forward to your next two posts on this, Hugo.
I’m pretty sure that “worthiness” is to men as the beauty myth is to women — dangled as the key to acceptance but past a very low threshold not really relevant on the other party’s part.
You’re on to something, figleaf. Thanks.
There are times when looking at everything through a gender perspective can get in the way. Something like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs speaks to this in a more universal manner. I think what worthiness or beauty myths relate to is the inner drive towards self-actualization. The differing ways society suggests we achieve that are, to a degree, details once we focus on the more basic issue. IMHO.
Oh the tendency to develop pop culture “archetypes” like the SNAG or Nice Guy seems sort of superficial. They are more like overly broad generalizations. All though i admit i can think if men who could be fit into those labels. “It’s easy to play armchair psychologist and pathologize every activist.” this is a good thought and should be liberally applied to men, woman, and everybody else.
And this self-awareness is a prerequisite for continued growth. It is the prerequisite for the sort of resolve that Bly mentions. And righteous action, predicated on both empathy for others and upon deep self-awareness, is something far too few men comprehend.
A little more description in advance of the prescription might help the reader follow. No one who reads you regularly, or even occasionally, would not expect you eventually to prescribe something “deep,” something “righteous,” something “radical,” in the name of “growth,” but I fail to perceive the continuity between the much-deplored “nice guys” of the blogosphere’s description, who seem to vary from men who are not socially adroit enough to gracefully put rejection behind them to men who are violently, ill-concealedly misogynist and homophobic to men who just aren’t very attractive or cool, and the yearning lost souls ready to be conscripted into the army of justice. I don’t think the “nice guys,” as described elsewhere, are sympathetic to women or inclined to solidarity with anybody but themselves.
As for dragon-slaying, “when Christ calls a man, He bids him to come and die,” but far be it from me to suggest an allegorical interpretation when the sociological one is ready at hand.
In my next post, I’ll try and be more specific about who these meandering future conscripts actually are.
I enjoyed Iron John the same way that I enjoyed Eirich von Daniken’s Chariots of the Gods. They were entertaining, but they both seemed to be written about space aliens. Nothing in Iron John resonated with my own experience at all, and it all seemed to point toward validating men’s return to their comfort zones rather than encouraging the kind of genuine productive self-reflection you seem to want to read into it.
I have indeed read a great many blog arguments about \”nice guys\” but they often go something like this:
Someone asks why so many women are attracted to the \”bad boy\” or seem to be otherwise attracted to unstable men that treat them poorly or violently. The folks that initiate these questions are hardly the SNAG\’s you mention, but rather, people genuinely curious why women seek these \”bad boys\” out and why they often prefer them over more financially or mentally stable men.
When there is not outright denial that it happens, I\’ve heard all sorts of reasons. Sometimes stable secure guys are just boring. They are no challenge. No Fun. But usually in what comes out of the mental gymnastics necessary to justify their reasoning, women trot out the very stereotypes you have in this post. Suddenly, these men are misogynists or passive aggressive or controlling or have feelings of entitlement or any number of other insulting and/or demeaning descriptions and over generalizations you repeat here. The result is that usually the self destructive behaviors of these women remain unexamined. Shaming and personal attacks are tried and true methods to silence people that discuss unpleasant truths you don\’t want to hear (or admit).
I look at this question as being somewhat different than what Bly discusses concerning lack of resolve in the \”Soft Male\” Bly looks at how males conform in western society and the resulting unhappyness that produces. After all, if you are un-happy with yourself, how can you make others happy. Men are expected to conform to societal expectations, yet society is amazingly inconsistant as to what that expectation is. We want both a passive and an aggressive male. Where Bly was wrong was in suggesting there was some kind of template men needed to follow. There is no right answer. You just got to do what makes you happy and the rest will follow.
And how, exactly, do we do this. Maybe the confusion about what men need to do is in part because of ambiguous constructs such as this. Renouncing privilage, ackowledging the enduring reality of male privilege, developing genuine self awareness. No wonder men are \”incapacitated\”. It\’s not fear, it\’s the inability to translate these buzz phrases into genuine change.
\”we often confuse verbal dexterity for authentic insight\”.
Amen Brother. No truer words..
In the third post (not the second) in this series, I’m gonna try and move past these glittering generalities to substantive suggestions. Pray for me.
The reason there’s no good answer to “why do women like the bad boys” is that it’s a ridiculous generalization and therefore impossible to appropriately respond to.
First of all, not all women like bad boys. Second of all, for women who do like some form of “bad boy” they each have their own psychological needs and quirks that they are fulfilling. And, many, many people of both sexes seek out partners who are not so healthy for them as they are learning and growing and figuring themselves out.
“Why do women like the bad boys” is just another whiny Nice Guy refrain that is UNANSWERABLE because it is simplistic and not true. And the people saying it are usually using it as a stand-in for “Why won’t the particular women I wish would sleep with/date me sleep with/date me??”
Someone asks why so many women are attracted to the \”bad boy\” or seem to be otherwise attracted to unstable men that treat them poorly or violently.
This is a deep mystery, because only women are ever attracted to people who are cute, but not so good for them in other ways. Men choose their mates carefully for emotional and financial stability, every time.
Even as teenagers.
I’m glad that you’re working Nice Guys into this discussion, because, in part, such a working in helps to avoid the tendency to vilify/other Nice Guys; there are reasons Nice Guys are the way they are, and it would help everybody for us to figure out some reasons why, rather than just tossing them aside the way Flippanter does when zie says that nice guys can be simply described thusly, as men “…who are violently, ill-concealedly misogynist and homophobic”.
Some may think Nice Guys (however generalized!) aren’t worth the time we might spend on figuring stuff out about them, but some of us think more along the lines of ‘there but for the grace of god go I’ and see connections between men who care about justice and men who might someday care about justice.
Also, regarding this idea:
“These good guys have spent much of their lives focusing on women’s concerns, and have developed the vocabulary of sympathy and solidarity. They have not developed genuine self-awareness in the process.”–Hugo
I think one thing that men who tend to care about the plight of women sometimes forget to do is to take care of themselves, both in terms of being self-aware and in terms of understanding that their needs still mean something, even if they don’t mean everything, as traditional masculinity would have us believe.
I’ve never read Bly, but I thank you for some exposition on him.
Ah yes. The obvious answer to an ridiculous generalization concerning women, is an ridiculous generalization concerning men.
Yeah.. of course there are guys that do the bad girl thing too. Hey wait! Does that mean that the women that think this are “Nice Girls” ? Angry because they too aren’t getting any action?
Really though.. Sometimes the answer to or the reason for an issue is not “well they do it too!”. I get that from my kids a lot.
Priviledged Male,
Here’s the deal about the “nice” guys arguments (this is wordy, sorry):
1) Most of the self-professed nice guys aren’t nice! They’re assholes! They just think their I’m-pretending-to-be-sensitive act entitles them to sex. Or that they deserve a cookie (girlfriend) for merely acting like a decent human being. Sometimes the guys are really strange or creepy and their actions either turn women off or scare them. They blame women for their lack of dating success instead of themselves - this makes them HUGE assholes. Both blaming women and feeling entitled to them is part of sexism. They’re usually sexist in other ways too. They also tend to take rejection very hard and act like it’s the worst thing in the world and no one else, especially women, knows what it’s like to be rejected.
2) Just because a “nice” guy says the girl he wants is dating an asshole doesn’t mean she’s actually dating an asshole unless you consider all other men except him an asshole. Let me tell you how many times I’ve heard this one in my life! Numerous times in high school and college, a guy would say he liked me and I would tell him I had a boyfriend. The guy would immediately say my boyfriend is an asshole who treats me badly. Weird, considering all he knew was that I had a boyfriend and nothing else. I’m sure he’d then go and complain loudly to all who would hear him about girls choosing jerks over nice guys like him.
Then you have the I’m-being-your-friend-so-that-I-can-get-in-your-pants “nice” guy who acts like he’s your friend but he really wants to date you. Since you think he’s your friend you tell him about some fights or problems in your relationship because you want a male perspective. The “nice” guy calls the boyfriend an asshole because he hears her complaints instead of realizing that the boyfriend isn’t an asshole because relationships have flaws, people have flaws, and nothing is perfect. If he dated her there would be times when she’d complain to someone else about him, then he’d be the asshole in some other guy’s eyes. He doesn’t realize that because he’s jealous. But of course, he complains to everyone in the world that the girl he likes is choosing a jerk over a nice guy like him.
3) Most women don’t want assholes and don’t choose assholes. If they happen to date an asshole it’s because A) They didn’t know he was an asshole because he acted nicely to them B) They have issues or C) They’re not “nice” girls.
4) If a woman or teenage girl chooses the exciting, hot guy over the “nice” guy - so what! Guys can’t complain at all here because they do the exact same freakin’ thing!
5) I see a lot of times when “nice” guys pine away for a woman because they project all these qualities onto her that she doesn’t have.
Right now, one of my friends (he’s 40) is trying to date someone who is in her mid-twenties. He’s convinced they’re right for each other. He doesn’t know her that well and if he’d think about what he does know about her, he would realize that they’re not compatible. He’s just going for her because he’s so desperate to have someone that anyone who is remotely nice to him he gloms onto.
And he wants her because she’s hot. He rejected a woman his age who was interested in him because she was “fat” and guess what - he’s fat! And balding! I love how he thinks he’s entitled to someone hot, who puts in time and effort to take care of herself, but he expects her to look past his physical flaws and not expect him to put time and effort into looking good for her. If you want a hottie then be a hottie.
I think the reason why the crap fallacy about women dating jerks is so widespread is because too many men think they’re entitled to women so they have to find someone to blame if they’re not getting women. If women don’t want them then women are stupid/evil/making bad choices/blah blah blah. It’s women’s fault!
Sure, some women are stupid, evil, or make bad choices, but guess what - so do men and you’re the common denominator in your relationships so the problem is probably you. (that was a general you, not a specific you)
“Yeah.. of course there are guys that do the bad girl thing too. Hey wait! Does that mean that the women that think this are “Nice Girls” ? Angry because they too aren’t getting any action?”
I know some women are “nice girls” when it comes to dating, but overall women aren’t socialized to think they’re entitled to someone else. Women are socialized to blame themselves - so when they’re rejected they think “What’s wrong with me” instead of “What’s wrong with him?” I know a lot of women who have the complaint that men want the big-chested barbie types, but instead of them outwardly complaining they’ll try hard to meet that standard of looks.
“Really though.. Sometimes the answer to or the reason for an issue is not “well they do it too!”. I get that from my kids a lot. ”
If you realize that it’s not a gender thing to choose someone who is attractive over someone who is nice, then why debate it as if it is? Why do men act like it’s such a huge affront to them when it happens to them as opposed to when it happens to women?
Well, I’m hardly a nice guy, and I only sleep alone or stay home on a Saturday night when I choose to. Go figger.
Yeah, yeah, I know. Insert broad and unfounded generalization about the type of women I must date, and their “issues,” and append smug and self-righteous snarky comment, one, standard issue.
Gonz, you might want to tone it down…
Yeah.. of course there are guys that do the bad girl thing too. Hey wait! Does that mean that the women that think this are “Nice Girls” ? Angry because they too aren’t getting any action?
Actually, yes, those women who talk as if choosing mates badly is an especially male failing (such as, for example, the sort of woman that says that men, and only men, just want “cute but dumb,” as if no woman ever cared more about a man’s looks than his brains), and who then feel all aggrieved about it, deserve the same sort of criticism as the “Nice Guys.”
Really though.. Sometimes the answer to or the reason for an issue is not “well they do it too!”. I get that from my kids a lot.
“Well they do it too!” is absolutely the right answer to an issue if the failing is being represented as an especially feminine one, when it’s actually more of a regular old human one. Such as, for example, when someone frames the question as “why women like bad boys,” instead of, “why do some people choose mates who are bad for them,” and perhaps even follows up with all sorts of evolutionary reasons why women supposedly want to be treated like shit. Once you acknowledge that men do it too, you might just realize that women, like men, might have regular old human reasons for picking bad boys, rather than especially feminine masochistic ones; namely, most of the time, when people (men or women) do pick people who are bad for them, those people have the compensating advantage of being pretty darn cute.
Reading the false premises in Anne’s posts made me wonder if I was on Plenty OF Fish for a moment, with all the stereotypical nice guy bashing that’s been done to death. It’s akin to a parody of a parody. I will revel one day when all of this is laid to rest for good.
Another reason why I have my critical barbs against that site as well.
Let’s leave off the attacks on other sites and other commenters, and stay on topic.