amenable breakfasted havens!addict?burglarproofing cognitive,…

The presumption of male incompetence in family/child care is maddening, as is the presumption of female incompetence with traditional male role activities. I think that you an I have been on the receiving end of an attitude that is very very annoying - that the other person’s way of doing things is the default, and any deviation on our part is wrong. WFT?!?!? I don’t ask others to do things my way when they are acting, and I don’t want them to expect me to do it their way when I am acting, be it doing the dishes, feeding the baby, or whatever. While I may have opinions about how other people do things, I only feel compelled to point things out when I feel there is immediate danger (toddlers roaming in the parking lot unattended, kids standing in shopping carts about to tumble out head first, etc.) And I’ve notice that those situations don’t seem to be confined to one gender.

That said, I’m not in perfect compliance with my ideals. Have I been accused of maternal gate keeping? Yes, twice in 7 months, that I recall. And I agree, that MH and I aren’t as happy as we used to be, and aren’t as functional. On the plus side, Jack is growing like a weed, and knows that he is loved, and is well cared for.

I also agree that bean counting in relationships is a bad bad idea. If one of the partners feels such an imbalance (real or merely perceived) that bean counting becomes a problem, then something needs to be done to address the issue. I think that MH and I are doing some bean counting - which isn’t a very attractive thing to realize about yourself, or your relationship. I must admit, I feel some base annoyance at myself, and at us as a couple for not being more competent at the whole ‘and baby makes three’ thing. Having prided ourselves on the quality of our marriage in the past (pride goes before the fall, doesn’t it?), I am chagrined that I can’t make the same statement now. Ah well, we will get through this because the alternative is not acceptable to either one of us at this point.

Your statement ““doing it wrong” so you don’t have to do a chore ever again is a trick most of us learned as teenagers, but some people manage to keep working into adulthood.” is based on the premise that someone is indeed actually doing it wrong.

If a man nitpicked, snarked, and groused about something his wife/girlfriend/S.O. did everytime they did it, and she eventually threw up her hands and said, “You know what? There’s no pleasing you. Buggar off, then, do it yourself from here on out” Hugo would write a post excoriating him for his insecurity about “wimmins being as good as him” and say that doing it himself was what he deserved, and he needed to do penance to get back in her good graces, and the comments section would be 64 long with “You go, boy!”

I used to have women - total strangers - come up to me all the time in public offering to change diapers so the “helpless widdle man” didn’t have to or inform me “Your son has ketchup all over his face.” Gee - YA THINK? How did that happen? Oh, yeah, we have a 20 month old eating fries with ketchup. And he’s not done yet. And when I wipe his face off, he’ll have it on again in about four seconds flat. So unless he’s trying to put them in his eye, or wash his hair with them, I’ll just let it ride while he’s still eating and just wipe his face off ONCE.

I didn’t have men come up and inform me that my toddler - in a stroller, no less - had his shoe untied and “could trip.” I didn’t have J. Random Man walk up and archly offer me sunscreen, like I had automatically forgotten to put it on him (That whole “Helpless with babies” gene that rides on the Y chromosome). Fathers didn’t snidely ask me “Don’t you have a jacket for that baby?” in seventy degree weather. (Yes, I do. He takes it off. He doesn’t want to wear it, and seventy degrees isn’t going to either kill him or give him TB)

None of that is “doing it wrong.” It’s doing it different.

I’m Dad. I’ve got it under control, and I don’t need a redundant X chromosome to know what I am doing.

Also to be fair, your original comment was made without alot of the information you’re referring to here. I made a vague comment about being careful about takers because I wanted Kate to protect herself if she needed to, and because I knew I didn’t have much information. Your comment didn’t take that possibilty into account so I wanted to put a bit of balance into the responses. I have a father who has given to me in many ways, even to the point where he has sacrficed himself - so I do not need to be told about how much men can give, I know already. This is also why I am in a position to warn people about self sacrifice. I don’t know where the assumption that I was unaware of how men give, or the one you made about me thinking people should keep score came from.

Also - you seem to be repeating some of the things I said. E.g. ”Intimidation [referring to the behaviour of Kate’s husband] is a screwed up dymnamic in a relationship [and that needs to be addressed]”. How dfferent is that from saying that Kate needs to be careful her husband is not a taker?

Best, I have enjoyed debating with you.

nowhere did I say that anyone should keep count. And I have been aware of the complexities of Kate’s situation - or any crisis in a marraige with small children. What I said was just a warning against letting yourself be taken advantage of - just as you protected yourself in your first marraige/divorce, that’s all. Note you didn’t give your ‘taker’ the boot before you got to the alter. Congratulations on the Grandchildren, sounds wonderful. You are blessed.

I’m not sure what you are getting at with the example of one guy that you think forgets things purposely - I’m wondering if you are just trying to reinforce a stereotype.

I think we need to question the attitude that men are always reluctant caregivers for babies, always looking for excuses not to participate fully in the care of their infants. That men have to be shamed into doing their “fair share’ as determined by mom, and watched carefully to be sure they are “doing it right” when they are nagged into helping. Sure, some men fall into that category, but there are certainly exceptions, me being one of them. As I said in my post on this, I have always been an enthusiastic caregiver of babies. It is something I always took a great deal of pride in, and the last thing I needed was someone keeping score of how much I did in that area, or looking over my shoulder to see if I “did things right.”

And perhaps I was fortunate. While some woman might react poorly if dad handles baby easily, my wife never did. She was a neonatal intensive care nurse, so she certainly had nothing to prove and no lack of confidence in that regard. In fact, while I think I am better with babies than most woman, I never had that feeling with my wife. I might well have had some problems if I married someone less competent and less secure in her mothering.

I’m wondering who ever made the law that mothers - and not fathers - always get to set the expectations for what is right and proper when it comes to baby care? That if we need to know if baby is being properly cared for, we ask mom first, never dad? I hear lots of talk about the tyranny of arbitrarily constructed gender roles when it comes to some things - like work - but the one gender role that is never questioned - by anybody - is that mom gets to set the standard of proper care of infants. And that dad better measure up.

Huh?

Of course you give takers the boot!!!! but who am I to tell if Kate or anyone else is with a taker. They don’t always show their cards straight away. Endless self sacrifice is never a good idea.

Neither is counting on you fingers every time you do something for someone and obsessing over them not doing something, or the right thing or enough things for you. As for who is and isn’t a taker, who are any of us to judge if either Kate or her husband are ultimately givers or takers. Especially with the limited information about them at hand. There are more dynamics here at play than who is changing the most diapers. There is working at home. Depression. The age difference. And apparently much more that none of us here are qualified to judge. The one thing I am sure of is that neither of them are happy.

Look: I’m certainly not suggesting endless self sacrifice, just to stop obsessing over who is doing what try to get on and enjoy your lives. Kate feels she is constantly short changed. Hubby feels nagged and depressed. Meanwhile the baby hangs out at the daycare. Not an ideal situation and not a situation that’s going to improve by obsessing more.

The one thing I do find disheartening is that Kate feels afraid to discuss these issues with her husband. Whether Kate’s or her Hubby’s complaints are valid is irrelevant here. Hubby has a duty to either stop intimidating his wife, or , if he is honest with himself and genuinely is not playing that game, find out why she feels intimidated and to put a stop to it. Intimidation is a screwed up dynamic in a relationship. If there is any reason counseling make sense, this is it.

Oh!, and Priveledged Male:
Something I didn’t say in my original comment but as you are clarifying things you may want to respond -
There was no hint in your original post of you thinking Kate’s marraige and son would benefit from the husband giving without limits, only Kate - even though she was clearly already at her wits end through gving so much. Do you think only the mother should give without limits? I know you said some men do this too, but it was clear from Kate’s post that her husband was not one of them (at least in his current actions).

Then let me specifically say that yes, I do feel that men have that obligation as well. Men can and often do give it their all, and the difference in mean livespan between men and women is to me, an indicator that this is indeed true. Men often give in different ways and because of that, sometimes women don’t recognize or value those sacrifices. It’s much the same way that women’s sacrifices are sometimes ignored by the men in their lives. Would that we all take our spouses for granted less.

It seems to me that your name is apt and you are priveledged: a happy marraige to someone you met at a young age. ).

Thank you! Yes I am! And extremely blessed as well. Did I mention I have five grandchildren?

There are all kinds of ‘takers’ or whatever you want to call them out there, and they don’t all let you know that straight away, usually any innate selfishness, or destructiveness shows itself when the S*** hits the fan. Maybe you have never experienced anyone like this and I wish you well in that. ).

Sure I have. I divorced her.

Sure. It’s like paternal gatekeeping, where some men feel threatened if Mom takes over traditional “Dad duties” like discipline or roughhousing, or get upset if their wives are the breadwinners.

Of course, while I’m sure this wasn’t Gonz’s issue, “doing it wrong” so you don’t have to do a chore ever again is a trick most of us learned as teenagers, but some people manage to keep working into adulthood. One acquaintance of mine with a severely disabled child is married to a man who “can’t remember” how to, say, clean up after giving the baby needed medical treatment.