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	<title>Comments on: Full Frontal Feminism: my students respond</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/</link>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 01:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Stephanie</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-195725</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephanie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-195725</guid>
		<description>I teach a facilitator session as part of a main session WS class, I assigned FFF to my students as well and really appreciate you posting your students responses, I looooooooved the book and now Im confident my student will as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I teach a facilitator session as part of a main session WS class, I assigned FFF to my students as well and really appreciate you posting your students responses, I looooooooved the book and now Im confident my student will as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Ladybird</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-180211</link>
		<dc:creator>Ladybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 20:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-180211</guid>
		<description>And there's nothing that Hugo could say or do that would make you not continue to dog him.  From what I gather from your posts, there is nothing he actually. can do, you know, bein white and all.

I'm sure that it makes you quite angry that not everything is this big old world revolves around racism.  But it doesn't.  Feminism doesn't. Jessica's book didn't.  And nothing Jessica can say or do will make any difference to people like you. Not because she can't or won't try, not because her heart isn't in the right place,  but like Hugo,  simply because she's white.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And there&#8217;s nothing that Hugo could say or do that would make you not continue to dog him.  From what I gather from your posts, there is nothing he actually. can do, you know, bein white and all.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that it makes you quite angry that not everything is this big old world revolves around racism.  But it doesn&#8217;t.  Feminism doesn&#8217;t. Jessica&#8217;s book didn&#8217;t.  And nothing Jessica can say or do will make any difference to people like you. Not because she can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t try, not because her heart isn&#8217;t in the right place,  but like Hugo,  simply because she&#8217;s white.</p>
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		<title>By: La Chola &#187; Blog Archive &#187; teaching full frontal feminism</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-180078</link>
		<dc:creator>La Chola &#187; Blog Archive &#187; teaching full frontal feminism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 16:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-180078</guid>
		<description>[...] Hugo Schwyzer has a glowing post up of how teaching Full Frontal Feminism in his womens studies class went. In short: Amazing. The women in the class loved it, and guess what? There was even women of color in class!! And they loved it! And that has laid to rest any lingering doubts he had about the book. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Hugo Schwyzer has a glowing post up of how teaching Full Frontal Feminism in his womens studies class went. In short: Amazing. The women in the class loved it, and guess what? There was even women of color in class!! And they loved it! And that has laid to rest any lingering doubts he had about the book. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: The Redstar Perspective &#187; Hey, watch my hat sail into the ring&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-157446</link>
		<dc:creator>The Redstar Perspective &#187; Hey, watch my hat sail into the ring&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-157446</guid>
		<description>[...] Here are the most recent posts about this that are in my Google reader, beginning with the professor&#8217;s that stimulated the criticism.   I ended up reading through them for hours, and eventually posted a comment at Brownfemipower&#8217;s post about the silo-ing and/or silencing of perspectives and activism of women of color in women&#8217;s studies curricula.  I wish, a day later, that I could remember in which post the author asked where were the white women criticizing FFF.  It was made as a critique, if I remember correctly (feel like I&#8217;m playing catch up&#8230;this is why I am often so often just a lurker!), of how the professor&#8217;s post indicated that a few of his women of color students liking the book therefore meant it was actually not offensive to WOC, as if women who fit this description (according to whom, RP readers ask) are a homogeneous and tightly bounded group such that the opinions of a few individuals can stand for everyone, versus the basically infinite opinions possible re: this book among all women who read it.*   Well, here&#8217;s one white woman, at least. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Here are the most recent posts about this that are in my Google reader, beginning with the professor&#8217;s that stimulated the criticism.   I ended up reading through them for hours, and eventually posted a comment at Brownfemipower&#8217;s post about the silo-ing and/or silencing of perspectives and activism of women of color in women&#8217;s studies curricula.  I wish, a day later, that I could remember in which post the author asked where were the white women criticizing FFF.  It was made as a critique, if I remember correctly (feel like I&#8217;m playing catch up&#8230;this is why I am often so often just a lurker!), of how the professor&#8217;s post indicated that a few of his women of color students liking the book therefore meant it was actually not offensive to WOC, as if women who fit this description (according to whom, RP readers ask) are a homogeneous and tightly bounded group such that the opinions of a few individuals can stand for everyone, versus the basically infinite opinions possible re: this book among all women who read it.*   Well, here&#8217;s one white woman, at least. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: michelle</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-157217</link>
		<dc:creator>michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-157217</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Michelle brings up great points.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, there's apparently no point that I could bring up that Hugo can't twist and distort and use for his purposes:

&lt;a href="http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/26/the-full-frontal-feminism-controversy-again-and-a-call-for-suggestions/" rel="nofollow"&gt;The “Full Frontal Feminism” controversy again, and a call for suggestions&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Michelle brings up great points.</i></p>
<p>Well, there&#8217;s apparently no point that I could bring up that Hugo can&#8217;t twist and distort and use for his purposes:</p>
<p><a href="http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/26/the-full-frontal-feminism-controversy-again-and-a-call-for-suggestions/" rel="nofollow">The “Full Frontal Feminism” controversy again, and a call for suggestions</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daomadan</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-157134</link>
		<dc:creator>Daomadan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-157134</guid>
		<description>“I think there’s plenty of time, Jeff, for us to bring up the past shortcomings of white feminists in reaching out to young women of color."

Always plenty of time until we all realize we haven't done a damn thing about how white feminists continue to short change women of color. Michelle brings up great points.  

"One young woman, a very articulate and thoughtful conservative..."

This sounds like all those white people who are so impressed Obama is an articulate speaker.  An articulate young woman (and a conservative to boot)? No! /sarcasm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I think there’s plenty of time, Jeff, for us to bring up the past shortcomings of white feminists in reaching out to young women of color.&#8221;</p>
<p>Always plenty of time until we all realize we haven&#8217;t done a damn thing about how white feminists continue to short change women of color. Michelle brings up great points.  </p>
<p>&#8220;One young woman, a very articulate and thoughtful conservative&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>This sounds like all those white people who are so impressed Obama is an articulate speaker.  An articulate young woman (and a conservative to boot)? No! /sarcasm</p>
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		<title>By: theCougar</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156811</link>
		<dc:creator>theCougar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156811</guid>
		<description>Hugo-

Great job assigning this book...I’m also happy to hear that there was such a positive response from your students. Being a young feminist blogger, and activist for women's rights it feels good to see that people took so well to Jessica’s book. She inspirers me and I’m glad she could do the same for others, especially young women (because I think a lot of us need it!)

As for the criticism on FFF being too “white”…well duhh! Jessica is a white middle class woman, that’s the perspective she has. She’s not trying to take on a role that she doesn’t know. As a man doesn’t know what it is like to have a vagina in our patriarchal society, the same goes for Jessica—she doesn’t know what it feels like to have black skin or be Latino etc, in a dominate white society. However, she is aware of this and doesn’t try to be what she is not. Being aware is having the knowledge to act responsibly. I believe Jessica acted intelligently, and responsible in her choices. She acknowledges the differences in different ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds; however she didn’t voice specific insight into those matters, because she doesn’t have the knowledge to do so. 
Anyway—cheers and continue enlightening today’s youth—it’s a difficult job but it seems as though you’re doing quite a good job at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo-</p>
<p>Great job assigning this book&#8230;I’m also happy to hear that there was such a positive response from your students. Being a young feminist blogger, and activist for women&#8217;s rights it feels good to see that people took so well to Jessica’s book. She inspirers me and I’m glad she could do the same for others, especially young women (because I think a lot of us need it!)</p>
<p>As for the criticism on FFF being too “white”…well duhh! Jessica is a white middle class woman, that’s the perspective she has. She’s not trying to take on a role that she doesn’t know. As a man doesn’t know what it is like to have a vagina in our patriarchal society, the same goes for Jessica—she doesn’t know what it feels like to have black skin or be Latino etc, in a dominate white society. However, she is aware of this and doesn’t try to be what she is not. Being aware is having the knowledge to act responsibly. I believe Jessica acted intelligently, and responsible in her choices. She acknowledges the differences in different ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds; however she didn’t voice specific insight into those matters, because she doesn’t have the knowledge to do so.<br />
Anyway—cheers and continue enlightening today’s youth—it’s a difficult job but it seems as though you’re doing quite a good job at it.</p>
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		<title>By: Bianca Reagan</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156732</link>
		<dc:creator>Bianca Reagan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156732</guid>
		<description>I agree with what Jeff said, except I'm not remotely apologetic about it. Ignoring the discriminatory history of feminism and not including more material about women of color is wrong, especially in a book call "Full Frontal Feminism."

&lt;i&gt;"I think there’s plenty of time, Jeff, for us to bring up the past shortcomings of white feminists in reaching out to young women of color. But Valenti’s book is radically relevant to their lives right now, irrespective of class and ethnicity. Read in a vacuum, it would be problematic in a women’s studies course — read in conjunction with a variety of other texts, it’s superb."&lt;/i&gt;

Hugo, there always seems to be "plenty of time" to talk about the colored folks. But it never seems like the time is "now." This is exactly the kind of attitude that annoyed the original critics of Jessica's book. It's not that we don't appreciate her desire to introduce feminism to a new audience. We don't appreciate her whitewashing an entire movement by omitting the unique struggles of nonwhite women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with what Jeff said, except I&#8217;m not remotely apologetic about it. Ignoring the discriminatory history of feminism and not including more material about women of color is wrong, especially in a book call &#8220;Full Frontal Feminism.&#8221;</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I think there’s plenty of time, Jeff, for us to bring up the past shortcomings of white feminists in reaching out to young women of color. But Valenti’s book is radically relevant to their lives right now, irrespective of class and ethnicity. Read in a vacuum, it would be problematic in a women’s studies course — read in conjunction with a variety of other texts, it’s superb.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Hugo, there always seems to be &#8220;plenty of time&#8221; to talk about the colored folks. But it never seems like the time is &#8220;now.&#8221; This is exactly the kind of attitude that annoyed the original critics of Jessica&#8217;s book. It&#8217;s not that we don&#8217;t appreciate her desire to introduce feminism to a new audience. We don&#8217;t appreciate her whitewashing an entire movement by omitting the unique struggles of nonwhite women.</p>
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		<title>By: Some Links &#171; Questioning Transphobia</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156418</link>
		<dc:creator>Some Links &#171; Questioning Transphobia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 04:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156418</guid>
		<description>[...] Brownfemipower and BlackAmazon respond to Hugo Schwyzer resurrecting the &#60;b&#62;Full Frontal Feminism&#60;/b&#62; controversy. The discussion about how women of color are marginalized in college feminism courses is very to the point. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Brownfemipower and BlackAmazon respond to Hugo Schwyzer resurrecting the &lt;b&gt;Full Frontal Feminism&lt;/b&gt; controversy. The discussion about how women of color are marginalized in college feminism courses is very to the point. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: michelle</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156225</link>
		<dc:creator>michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/07/full-frontal-feminism-my-students-respond/#comment-156225</guid>
		<description>Hugo,

I used to teach at a state college not that different from a community college.

IMO it's way, WAY past time for you to stop playing these games you're playing. This is not about you. Your perspective on what is going on is limited and if you are going to be a true teacher you will act like one -- let go of whatever games you are playing and step the hell up for real.

You have a responsibility to not distort things like this. Whether you are capable of stepping up to the responsibility I don't know. I would guess no but please please prove my guess wrong.

IMO &lt;b&gt;You need to directly connect your students to the discussions that have gone on about this on the web.

IMO you need to do this by actively, directly and respectfully collaborating with the actual  people who have offered these critiques. You know who they are, yes? 

So. Ask them: What specifically would they like your students to read and in what format? Ask them and then assign it. What questions would they like your students to discuss based on this situation? Ask them and have those discussions in your classroom (with respect, not to discredit them and you know what I mean). What kind of follow-up, if any, do they want to see? Ask them and do it.&lt;/b&gt;

Hugo, teaching and learning is deep stuff. And in this society with the power dynamics flowing all around this work and the dynamics of the institutions and their connection to upward mobility and the economic system, the one positioned as "teacher" has the capacity to do very serious violence. 

Whether you choose to recognize this or not -- it is true and it is on YOUR shoulders. This is a heavy responsibility. 

Your teaching is not about your ego, or you being right or expert or having the attitude that you know best about how to teach students of color. This is NOT about your ego or expertness. It is NOT. Stop playing these games. You have something to learn and the responsibility to act on that learning.

Hugo, be a real teacher and open this up beyond your biases and approaches. Make this about actual learning, and not your assumptions and perceptions of what is going on.

I just looked at the semester calender for Pasadena City College where you teach. There is still time for you to do the right thing here. Not a lot of time, only two weeks left of classes, but you can do it. If you choose to do it. I don't care how crucial and important your syllabus as-is to you, I know that syllabi can change if the teacher is willing and determines that it is necessary for real learning. It takes work. Are you willing to do that work?

It is not too late to correct for the mistakes you're making. It is not too late to respond as a real teacher. It is totally possible for you to do this. 

Step up, Hugo. Stop with the slippery words and step the hell up. You are a teacher but you need to be able to learn also -- because this responsibility is on your shoulders whether you admit it or not -- and from what I can see, it is way past time. 

And by the way, I don't normally bother engaging people who seem as closed as you are, but the fact that you are in the teacher role in relation to students of color is scaring the shit out of me, and so I am trying, trying to get through your wall of ego and me-me-me expert craziness in case there is ANY part of you that knows that teaching and learning is deep work and you are shirking a deep and real responsibility in how you are doing this. 

And,  if I can be of any practical help with the logistics of changing your syllabus and moving on this, please feel free to call on me (in public, or you have my email address from my comments -- in fact if you do want to do this in public please send me an email with the link, so I know where it is and can respond quickly, I check email more reglularly than blogs). 

I don't want to do this because I am not in academia anymore and it will hurt me to do -- but I feel like it is my responsibility to help if I ask you to do this and if I can be of assistance with the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo,</p>
<p>I used to teach at a state college not that different from a community college.</p>
<p>IMO it&#8217;s way, WAY past time for you to stop playing these games you&#8217;re playing. This is not about you. Your perspective on what is going on is limited and if you are going to be a true teacher you will act like one &#8212; let go of whatever games you are playing and step the hell up for real.</p>
<p>You have a responsibility to not distort things like this. Whether you are capable of stepping up to the responsibility I don&#8217;t know. I would guess no but please please prove my guess wrong.</p>
<p>IMO <b>You need to directly connect your students to the discussions that have gone on about this on the web.</p>
<p>IMO you need to do this by actively, directly and respectfully collaborating with the actual  people who have offered these critiques. You know who they are, yes? </p>
<p>So. Ask them: What specifically would they like your students to read and in what format? Ask them and then assign it. What questions would they like your students to discuss based on this situation? Ask them and have those discussions in your classroom (with respect, not to discredit them and you know what I mean). What kind of follow-up, if any, do they want to see? Ask them and do it.</b></p>
<p>Hugo, teaching and learning is deep stuff. And in this society with the power dynamics flowing all around this work and the dynamics of the institutions and their connection to upward mobility and the economic system, the one positioned as &#8220;teacher&#8221; has the capacity to do very serious violence. </p>
<p>Whether you choose to recognize this or not &#8212; it is true and it is on YOUR shoulders. This is a heavy responsibility. </p>
<p>Your teaching is not about your ego, or you being right or expert or having the attitude that you know best about how to teach students of color. This is NOT about your ego or expertness. It is NOT. Stop playing these games. You have something to learn and the responsibility to act on that learning.</p>
<p>Hugo, be a real teacher and open this up beyond your biases and approaches. Make this about actual learning, and not your assumptions and perceptions of what is going on.</p>
<p>I just looked at the semester calender for Pasadena City College where you teach. There is still time for you to do the right thing here. Not a lot of time, only two weeks left of classes, but you can do it. If you choose to do it. I don&#8217;t care how crucial and important your syllabus as-is to you, I know that syllabi can change if the teacher is willing and determines that it is necessary for real learning. It takes work. Are you willing to do that work?</p>
<p>It is not too late to correct for the mistakes you&#8217;re making. It is not too late to respond as a real teacher. It is totally possible for you to do this. </p>
<p>Step up, Hugo. Stop with the slippery words and step the hell up. You are a teacher but you need to be able to learn also &#8212; because this responsibility is on your shoulders whether you admit it or not &#8212; and from what I can see, it is way past time. </p>
<p>And by the way, I don&#8217;t normally bother engaging people who seem as closed as you are, but the fact that you are in the teacher role in relation to students of color is scaring the shit out of me, and so I am trying, trying to get through your wall of ego and me-me-me expert craziness in case there is ANY part of you that knows that teaching and learning is deep work and you are shirking a deep and real responsibility in how you are doing this. </p>
<p>And,  if I can be of any practical help with the logistics of changing your syllabus and moving on this, please feel free to call on me (in public, or you have my email address from my comments &#8212; in fact if you do want to do this in public please send me an email with the link, so I know where it is and can respond quickly, I check email more reglularly than blogs). </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to do this because I am not in academia anymore and it will hurt me to do &#8212; but I feel like it is my responsibility to help if I ask you to do this and if I can be of assistance with the process.</p>
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