Comments on: White men teaching feminism to women of color: a post about class, privilege, and the need for humility, curiosity, and flexibility http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/ Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:09:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: What is this, Sexism and Racism Week or something? « She who stumbles http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-321419 What is this, Sexism and Racism Week or something? « She who stumbles Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:04:21 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-321419 [...] has done repeatedly:“Certain radical women of color bloggers (RWOC) are accusing…”“…my critics in the “feminist/womanists of color” blogosphere…”“Many of the prominent “women of color” bloggers in the feminist blogosphere clearly [...] […] has done repeatedly:“Certain radical women of color bloggers (RWOC) are accusing…”“…my critics in the “feminist/womanists of color” blogosphere…”“Many of the prominent “women of color” bloggers in the feminist blogosphere clearly […]

]]> By: I Pledge To Do Better at Listening to Women of Color–Just Not These Women of Color, Because They’re Mean « Off Our Pedestals http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-306430 I Pledge To Do Better at Listening to Women of Color–Just Not These Women of Color, Because They’re Mean « Off Our Pedestals Mon, 14 Apr 2008 09:22:42 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-306430 [...] Hugo Schwyzer, November 2007, emphasis in original: . . . the chief thing I need to continue to do, and to get better at doing, is to remain teachable. [...] […] Hugo Schwyzer, November 2007, emphasis in original: . . . the chief thing I need to continue to do, and to get better at doing, is to remain teachable. […]

]]> By: Rainbow http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-161423 Rainbow Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:29:27 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-161423 5 minutes was not meant to be rigid time limit. It was just the concept of inviting, welcoming comments, questions. It is an attitude, an openness. There are always a few students who are not afraid of forum or who like to hear themselves talk. They can be easily engaged if invited to speak. The most tuned out student can sometimes be rouse to interact when she hears something from another student that inspires or annoys-- that is, not the authority figure. I had a religion teacher once who never forgot the class with the three born-again female Christian students and the one serious male Satanist. He said it was the most interesting class he ever taught and he barely did more than start the discussion going. College students can hopefully read a text themselves and only need a minimum of straight lecture. On the topic of male and white privilege, it is interesting to read the #1 ladies detective agency series, which is written by a white male law professor from an African woman's perspective. He is well aware of how men throw their weight around and how women struggle with their place between modern theories and traditional ideals. 5 minutes was not meant to be rigid time limit. It was just the concept of inviting, welcoming comments, questions. It is an attitude, an openness. There are always a few students who are not afraid of forum or who like to hear themselves talk. They can be easily engaged if invited to speak. The most tuned out student can sometimes be rouse to interact when she hears something from another student that inspires or annoys– that is, not the authority figure. I had a religion teacher once who never forgot the class with the three born-again female Christian students and the one serious male Satanist. He said it was the most interesting class he ever taught and he barely did more than start the discussion going. College students can hopefully read a text themselves and only need a minimum of straight lecture.
On the topic of male and white privilege, it is interesting to read the #1 ladies detective agency series, which is written by a white male law professor from an African woman’s perspective. He is well aware of how men throw their weight around and how women struggle with their place between modern theories and traditional ideals.

]]> By: Meredith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-160183 Meredith Sat, 01 Dec 2007 06:51:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-160183 Hmm, interesting. I'll give it a shot. Hmm, interesting. I’ll give it a shot.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159863 Hugo Schwyzer Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:49:03 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159863 It is a thought, and a good one. Sigh -- if only I weren't teaching six other classes too. It is a thought, and a good one. Sigh — if only I weren’t teaching six other classes too.

]]> By: Col Steve http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159855 Col Steve Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:38:21 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159855 A general solution: Take the position in a survey course that the professor does not (probably can not anyway) have to cover the entire material -- especially if the assigned readings do a good job -- for most classes. Cover the gaps, the opposing points, the linkages, etc. Cut lecture time to 50 minutes (about the most time the average student can stay focus for an average lecture IMO) for 10 classes (keep the full 75 minutes for the remainder where the subjects are perhaps more nuanced/controversial). Assign 5 students to stay the remaining 25 minutes and discuss one or two issues/statements/points related to that day's session (the mechanics of random/sign-up; give topic in advance/on the spot are up to the professor based on the unique factors of that class/course). Assign a grade based on the quality of participation, not quantity (so, responses such as "you're too sensitive" lower your grade). Invite the rest of the class to participate as silent observers. Repeat 10 times during the semester. Also, in lieu of a final exam, conduct 5 larger group exercises (10 per). Assign each group a theme that integrates some of the course concepts. Have each student get up and present for 10 minutes on an aspect of the topic (you can talk for 10 minutes about the same number of words you can write in a 3 hour essay final). With break, that exercise takes 2 hours. Conduct a one hour group discussion (same grading rule as with the smaller group). Total time is 3 hours. For 5 groups, that's 15 hours of instructor time, but considering you basically can have "graded" each student by the end of the exercise so all you have left to do is review your notes and write some feedback comments (assuming you even feel obliged to do that as opposed to just assigning the grade). I suspect that time is less than trying to grade 50 essay final exams. If you combine with a mid-term essay or some individual writing requirement, you can cover various examination forms, even in a survey course.. Just a thought.. A general solution:

Take the position in a survey course that the professor does not (probably can not anyway) have to cover the entire material — especially if the assigned readings do a good job — for most classes. Cover the gaps, the opposing points, the linkages, etc.

Cut lecture time to 50 minutes (about the most time the average student can stay focus for an average lecture IMO) for 10 classes (keep the full 75 minutes for the remainder where the subjects are perhaps more nuanced/controversial).

Assign 5 students to stay the remaining 25 minutes and discuss one or two issues/statements/points related to that day’s session (the mechanics of random/sign-up; give topic in advance/on the spot are up to the professor based on the unique factors of that class/course). Assign a grade based on the quality of participation, not quantity (so, responses such as “you’re too sensitive” lower your grade). Invite the rest of the class to participate as silent observers. Repeat 10 times during the semester.

Also, in lieu of a final exam, conduct 5 larger group exercises (10 per). Assign each group a theme that integrates some of the course concepts. Have each student get up and present for 10 minutes on an aspect of the topic (you can talk for 10 minutes about the same number of words you can write in a 3 hour essay final). With break, that exercise takes 2 hours. Conduct a one hour group discussion (same grading rule as with the smaller group). Total time is 3 hours. For 5 groups, that’s 15 hours of instructor time, but considering you basically can have “graded” each student by the end of the exercise so all you have left to do is review your notes and write some feedback comments (assuming you even feel obliged to do that as opposed to just assigning the grade). I suspect that time is less than trying to grade 50 essay final exams.

If you combine with a mid-term essay or some individual writing requirement, you can cover various examination forms, even in a survey course..

Just a thought..

]]> By: Meredith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159155 Meredith Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:59:00 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159155 <i>Meredith, can you see the same pattern repeating itself with this whole FFF thing? Because I can, I can see how the privileged white people both angrily argued and dismissively argued against the critiques of WOC, in hopes we would just go doodle somewhere.</i> I am aware of the pattern similarities: I'm trying very hard not to be dismissive and/or silencing of WoC. It's why my tone is so different on this thread than in previous threads. (One of my graduate degrees is in law, so I have a tendency to go straight for the jugular.) Re-reading my posts made me realize how much further I have to go, especially during finals season. My apologies. Yet I have lived Rainbow's recommendations as both a student and a teacher, and, well, they scarred me. In fact, it's a large part of the reason why I'm now in the health and law intensive fields I'm currently in, instead of women's studies. Now, it could just be the context of my UG and graduate programs. However, I'm pretty sure there's a better solution somewhere, but I don't know what it is or how it can be achieved. I was hoping that by sharing my experiences, we could brainstorm something more viable. Meredith, can you see the same pattern repeating itself with this whole FFF thing? Because I can, I can see how the privileged white people both angrily argued and dismissively argued against the critiques of WOC, in hopes we would just go doodle somewhere.

I am aware of the pattern similarities: I’m trying very hard not to be dismissive and/or silencing of WoC. It’s why my tone is so different on this thread than in previous threads. (One of my graduate degrees is in law, so I have a tendency to go straight for the jugular.) Re-reading my posts made me realize how much further I have to go, especially during finals season. My apologies.

Yet I have lived Rainbow’s recommendations as both a student and a teacher, and, well, they scarred me. In fact, it’s a large part of the reason why I’m now in the health and law intensive fields I’m currently in, instead of women’s studies. Now, it could just be the context of my UG and graduate programs.

However, I’m pretty sure there’s a better solution somewhere, but I don’t know what it is or how it can be achieved. I was hoping that by sharing my experiences, we could brainstorm something more viable.

]]> By: Donna http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159098 Donna Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:54:08 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-159098 Meredith, can you see the same pattern repeating itself with this whole FFF thing? Because I can, I can see how the privileged white people both angrily argued and dismissively argued against the critiques of WOC, in hopes we would just go doodle somewhere. Hugo, I know you have seen what WOC/MOC are saying about some of your more problematic pronouncements. Like dismissing BA's critique and experiences out of hand and then going on to say that FFF couldn't possibly be more inclusive of WOC. That isn't your decision to make, that is privilege speaking, "Hey, you got 10 whole pages, man! Isn't that enough for you? Greedy, greedy WOC." The same with telling Jeff that there is plenty of time to address white centered feminism. Yeah, we've been ignored for hundreds of years, whats another couple hundred? What I said on the other thread, I would really prefer that white authors didn't even cover us at all than do a half-assed job. It's also what BA meant by her post, "Don't include me." because we know we are only included to use us and for the appearance of being liberal minded, appearance only. I don't think it's too hard to see that Jessica had a specific audience in mind while she was writing, someone like her, there is nothing wrong with that. What is a problem is that at the end she was like, oops, I better throw out a holla to the brown chicks and stuck that intersectionality chapter in there. We know when we are an afterthought. I know I shouldn't go here because it's possible my words will be used to pit for example the poor brown girls against the rich brown girls, but I am because for some reason white people don't understand how complex we are, as complex as knowing that white people aren't a monolith, neither are we. There should be no surprise that FFF will speak to some WOC. Some WOC are more white identified than others, some WOC really do believe that white people are superior to themselves and more authoritative, some WOC are middle class and will have more commonalities with middle class whites, all WOC are used to being shunted to the side and told they aren't important and some get excited when finally some attention is paid to them, even if it is only 10 pages, etc. I'd really prefer that people didn't use the fact that someone liked the book to dismiss someone else who didn't. I'd rather they addressed the specific reasons why the book was liked or disliked instead of bashing either WOC. Meredith, can you see the same pattern repeating itself with this whole FFF thing? Because I can, I can see how the privileged white people both angrily argued and dismissively argued against the critiques of WOC, in hopes we would just go doodle somewhere.

Hugo, I know you have seen what WOC/MOC are saying about some of your more problematic pronouncements. Like dismissing BA’s critique and experiences out of hand and then going on to say that FFF couldn’t possibly be more inclusive of WOC. That isn’t your decision to make, that is privilege speaking, “Hey, you got 10 whole pages, man! Isn’t that enough for you? Greedy, greedy WOC.” The same with telling Jeff that there is plenty of time to address white centered feminism. Yeah, we’ve been ignored for hundreds of years, whats another couple hundred?

What I said on the other thread, I would really prefer that white authors didn’t even cover us at all than do a half-assed job. It’s also what BA meant by her post, “Don’t include me.” because we know we are only included to use us and for the appearance of being liberal minded, appearance only. I don’t think it’s too hard to see that Jessica had a specific audience in mind while she was writing, someone like her, there is nothing wrong with that. What is a problem is that at the end she was like, oops, I better throw out a holla to the brown chicks and stuck that intersectionality chapter in there. We know when we are an afterthought.

I know I shouldn’t go here because it’s possible my words will be used to pit for example the poor brown girls against the rich brown girls, but I am because for some reason white people don’t understand how complex we are, as complex as knowing that white people aren’t a monolith, neither are we. There should be no surprise that FFF will speak to some WOC. Some WOC are more white identified than others, some WOC really do believe that white people are superior to themselves and more authoritative, some WOC are middle class and will have more commonalities with middle class whites, all WOC are used to being shunted to the side and told they aren’t important and some get excited when finally some attention is paid to them, even if it is only 10 pages, etc. I’d really prefer that people didn’t use the fact that someone liked the book to dismiss someone else who didn’t. I’d rather they addressed the specific reasons why the book was liked or disliked instead of bashing either WOC.

]]> By: Meredith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-158947 Meredith Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:48:04 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-158947 By "angrily arguing" I meant "dismissively arguing." My apologies. By “angrily arguing” I meant “dismissively arguing.” My apologies.

]]> By: Meredith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-158946 Meredith Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:47:24 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/11/28/white-men-teaching-feminism-to-women-of-color-a-post-about-class-privilege-and-the-need-for-humility-curiosity-and-flexibility/#comment-158946 Hugo is correct: it's only a defense of the lecture method in the context of introductory survey courses on socially heated issues. As much as I love seminars, they're not a quick fix. For starters, most colleges and universities simply can't afford to cap introductory surveys at 15 students. Even if you can make it past that hurdle, in my experience it's extraordinarily difficult to create a safe space for discussion in <i>introductory</i> survey courses. My alma mater could afford them, but the professors simply couldn't figure out how to prevent students with certain types of privilege from silencing students without those privileges. Women challenging women wasn't the problem. The problems were that 1) men questioned women's experiences with sexism, 2) white students questioning black students' experiences with racism, and 3) rich students' questioning working class students' experiences with economics. And by "questioning" I really mean "angrily arguing." There's only so many times you can hear, "oh, you're just being too sensitive" before you shut up and spend the rest of the class doodling. To be fair, a couple of my friends wound up in a section that did foster a safe space. However, they thought it had more to do with the students' personalities than with the professor's teaching abilities. (Because several survey seminars were mandatory, whether or not students wound up in a particular section depended on dumb luck.) I apologize for the confusion; finals season takes a toll on my writing skills. Hugo is correct: it’s only a defense of the lecture method in the context of introductory survey courses on socially heated issues.

As much as I love seminars, they’re not a quick fix. For starters, most colleges and universities simply can’t afford to cap introductory surveys at 15 students. Even if you can make it past that hurdle, in my experience it’s extraordinarily difficult to create a safe space for discussion in introductory survey courses. My alma mater could afford them, but the professors simply couldn’t figure out how to prevent students with certain types of privilege from silencing students without those privileges. Women challenging women wasn’t the problem. The problems were that 1) men questioned women’s experiences with sexism, 2) white students questioning black students’ experiences with racism, and 3) rich students’ questioning working class students’ experiences with economics. And by “questioning” I really mean “angrily arguing.” There’s only so many times you can hear, “oh, you’re just being too sensitive” before you shut up and spend the rest of the class doodling.

To be fair, a couple of my friends wound up in a section that did foster a safe space. However, they thought it had more to do with the students’ personalities than with the professor’s teaching abilities. (Because several survey seminars were mandatory, whether or not students wound up in a particular section depended on dumb luck.)

I apologize for the confusion; finals season takes a toll on my writing skills.

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