Comments on: Previewing a post on pornography, masculinity, and Robert Jensen: UPDATED

By: The Pornography and Masculinity Debate « Cheerful Megalomaniac

The Pornography and Masculinity Debate « Cheerful Megalomaniac — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:17:40 +0000

[…] Hugo disputes Courtney’s interpretation of Jensen’s ’self-hatred’ in a rebuttal post, and again in a the second part of a three part series of posts that he published on the book. He also disagrees with Amanda’s idea that the book is too hard on men. […]

By: John Spragge

John Spragge — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:34:37 +0000

Hugo, maybe nobody believes Mount Doom and Rings of Power exist, but if you read Tolkien with any attention at all, you see that he sets up a racial heirarchy, with the Numenorean exiles (who happen to resemble British Celts and Picts) and the Northern Riders (who resemble the Saxons), at the top. And at the bottom? To quote from Return of the King: “black men like half trolls with white eyes and red tongues”. Nor does this occur only as an unfortunate slip; references to dark-skinned allies of Mordor occur in several places through the book, and the concept of hierarchy permeates it. If I felt compelled to conform my aesthetic responses with my social and political opinions, I could not like Lord of the Rings. But as Orwell points out in his essay “Politics versus literature”, you can like a book even if you disagree with the assumptions and world view of the author.

This applies to what we call pornography. That doesn’t mean we can’t look at something and call it completely unaesthetic, simply hate propaganda. In fact, I’d have to say we need to look at a lot of what we call pornography that way. But we do not have to take the position, which I regard as extreme, that everything changes once anyone takes their clothes off. I absolutely do not believe it does, and I apply that to both the political arguments against “pornography” (yes, redeeming artistic value does exist), and also the arguments based on concern for the workers (a very valid issue, but one that needs addressing in good faith, rather than as a cudgel to beat people you want shut up for political reasons).

By: Hugo Schwyzer

Hugo Schwyzer — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:51:53 +0000

I remember that post, and it was a very good one. But as Jensen makes clear, the market for “gonzo” porn (the most violent and misogynistic images) is too big to be sustained by a few troubled individuals. He spends a lot of time at adult trade shows (like the AVN) and it’s clear that the “hard stuff” is the “bread n’ butter” of the industry.

By: Elizabeth

Elizabeth — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:46:27 +0000

Hugo, Amanda had a post up a while ago about the reason that the more misogynistic pornography sells so well. It had to do with supply and demand. The average guy might only desire to see and attractive woman naked or having sex with a man (or woman) and those images are very easy to find and very cheap. However the few people who want the more violent images want it more than the “average” consumer so they will pay more for it. So the market responds in kind. What do you think of that argument?

http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/10/05/well-the-worm-can-was-just-sitting-there-next-to-the-can-opener/#more-3903

By: Mermade

Mermade — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:27:19 +0000

I gotta buy this. In fact, I will probably purchase it tonight on Amazon.

By: Hugo Schwyzer

Hugo Schwyzer — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:07:15 +0000

But there isn’t really a Mt. Doom, Greg — no adult believes that Middle Earth is real. But lots of men DO believe there are women out there who “deserve to be raped”. Not all fantasy is the same, and it is also true that for many, the sexual fantasies they have don’t reflect real desires. (The example, much discussed in the Feministing thread, is some women’s fantasy of being overpowered.)

By: greg in ak

greg in ak — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:02:20 +0000

well I’ll be interested in your review. While i have always thought some of the criticism of some porn is overblown there is clearly some sick stuff out there. when i read this line that is taken from the book:

“a few basic themes are common:

All women at all times want sex from all men;
Women like all the sexual acts that men perform or demand; and
Any woman who does not at first realize this can be easily turned with a little force. Such force is rarely necessary, however, for most of the women in pornography are the “nymphomaniacs” that men fantasize about”

I had an immediate thought. And what about Frodo , he never really would have been able to get to Mount Doom. And Aragorn couldn’t really kill all those orcs. He would have been wounded or something. And how could the Enterprise always get out of the deadly situations. The point being that porn ,and lord of the rings and star trek, are fantasy. I’m just not surprised that a Fantasy(porn) has elements of Fantasy. the problem with porn is men who are to thick to see it as fantasy.

My experience suggest to me that people often have fantasies that are less than politically correct, the spectrum of human sexuality is vast and kinky and some will always be enticed by what is forbidden or exotic.

We’ll see what learning the book brings.

By: Ahunt

Ahunt — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:27:49 +0000

I’m with TH…must read the book.

I just can’t deal with porn, and like many women, simply avoid it.

By: Tom Head

Tom Head — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:03:22 +0000

I haven’t read the book yet, but Courtney’s post and yours make me want to. It sounds extremely powerful.

By: Hugo Schwyzer

Hugo Schwyzer — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:19:15 +0000

Al, I do know Katz’s work — and it goes a bit further indeed than Jackson does.

I adore Courtney and her writing, but I think she’s wrong about Jensen’s self-hate. He takes on that issue, and distinguishes righteous guilt and accountability from debilitating shame; for me, he draws a bright, clear line between the two.

I may need to put up TWO posts on the book, it’s that provocative…