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	<title>Comments on: Shame and self-hatred, guilt and self-esteem: part two of the series on Robert Jensen, porn, and masculinity</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity &#124; Mordant Belle</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-320889</link>
		<dc:creator>Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity &#124; Mordant Belle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-320889</guid>
		<description>[...] For a review from someone who actually HAS read the book, check out Hugo&#8217;s amazingly extensive three-part review posts. Robert Jensen is one of my favorite &#8220;modern&#8221; authors. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] For a review from someone who actually HAS read the book, check out Hugo&#8217;s amazingly extensive three-part review posts. Robert Jensen is one of my favorite &#8220;modern&#8221; authors. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-164088</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 04:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-164088</guid>
		<description>anon, if that was a serious question rather than finger-wagging, I'd be happy to answer you.

The short version is that "porn" is a huge controversial subject in feminism. And I don't think much of anyone who starts off characterizing those who disagree with their POV as a baddie. (I doubt very much that you would appreciate my characterizing people who have issues with pornography as "anti-sex," for example.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anon, if that was a serious question rather than finger-wagging, I&#8217;d be happy to answer you.</p>
<p>The short version is that &#8220;porn&#8221; is a huge controversial subject in feminism. And I don&#8217;t think much of anyone who starts off characterizing those who disagree with their POV as a baddie. (I doubt very much that you would appreciate my characterizing people who have issues with pornography as &#8220;anti-sex,&#8221; for example.)</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-163967</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-163967</guid>
		<description>Uh, let me nip this thread NOW -- this thread needs to go back immediately to shame and guilt as they relate to porn, not race.  Now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, let me nip this thread NOW &#8212; this thread needs to go back immediately to shame and guilt as they relate to porn, not race.  Now.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gonzman</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-163947</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gonzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 23:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-163947</guid>
		<description>Sungold,m I get more racism from my fellow Indians - and non-whites - by far and away than I do by whites.  In fact, among those who are aware of my Indian ancestry, I get more irritated by the implied condescension of bending over backwards to say "No offense" or using "Native American" or whatever.

Okay - one of your ancestors stole land off one of my ancestors. BFHD. Feces occurs, as the philosopher saith.

And you know what - case in point - a thing which really annoys me is the way liberals get offended FOR me.  Pardon the hell out of me, but I will choose what to be offended about for myself, thank ya very much.  I had someone talking about the Washington Redskins (a fan), and some schmuck started in with the "Excuse me!  There is a Native American here with us" and I'm like, hey, the only reason it bugs me is because I am a Cowboys fan.  So her response?  "Well, you're not much of a Native American, are you."

Yeah, right.  I guess since I don't toe the line on the PC plantation, I'm less authentic.  Now THAT is racist.

Criminy.  Ya know, if we want the oft professed colorblind society us who are of minority origins are going to have to chip in a little and chill out on the offense-mongering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sungold,m I get more racism from my fellow Indians - and non-whites - by far and away than I do by whites.  In fact, among those who are aware of my Indian ancestry, I get more irritated by the implied condescension of bending over backwards to say &#8220;No offense&#8221; or using &#8220;Native American&#8221; or whatever.</p>
<p>Okay - one of your ancestors stole land off one of my ancestors. BFHD. Feces occurs, as the philosopher saith.</p>
<p>And you know what - case in point - a thing which really annoys me is the way liberals get offended FOR me.  Pardon the hell out of me, but I will choose what to be offended about for myself, thank ya very much.  I had someone talking about the Washington Redskins (a fan), and some schmuck started in with the &#8220;Excuse me!  There is a Native American here with us&#8221; and I&#8217;m like, hey, the only reason it bugs me is because I am a Cowboys fan.  So her response?  &#8220;Well, you&#8217;re not much of a Native American, are you.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, right.  I guess since I don&#8217;t toe the line on the PC plantation, I&#8217;m less authentic.  Now THAT is racist.</p>
<p>Criminy.  Ya know, if we want the oft professed colorblind society us who are of minority origins are going to have to chip in a little and chill out on the offense-mongering.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162881</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162881</guid>
		<description>Sungold, I agree that guilt can be unproductive if it fails to motivate change -- but I have found (as Jensen) has found -- that guilt can be a marvelous catalyst for taking responsibility!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sungold, I agree that guilt can be unproductive if it fails to motivate change &#8212; but I have found (as Jensen) has found &#8212; that guilt can be a marvelous catalyst for taking responsibility!</p>
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		<title>By: Sungold</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162867</link>
		<dc:creator>Sungold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162867</guid>
		<description>To Gonzman: It's not about reducing burdens. It's about challenging relatively *privileged* people to actually make a difference. This requires acknowledging past injustices. I'm not advocating letting people off the hook. And yes, feeling guilty can often be a starting point. But if that's where you stop, nothing is going to change for the better.

If I just feel guilty - which frankly is what your reply seems to suggest I do (making some pretty massive assumptions about my own ethnicity and intentions) - what are the odds that I'll ask you how racism has affected your life? What are the odds that we can learn from each other's experiences? Usually when people merely feel guilty and aren't pushed to move toward a more politically productive position, they will stay silent, avoid dialogue, and remain as ignorant as they were at the start. Talking *critically* about race - or porn, for that matter - breaks a taboo, and I'm interested in getting past that taboo.

In short, I want my students to feel *more* of a burden to confront and deal with white privilege (and, of course, male privilege). Framing the issue in terms of responsibility rather than guilt is a way of sparking that productive process. It's a way of both slipping past people's defense mechanisms and (I hope) inspiring them to work toward a more just world.

And to Hugo: Of course there are major differences between racism, porn use, and lots of other things we might criticize. I mentioned the example of pedagogy in teaching about racism because I think it brings the tension between guilt and responsibility into particularly sharp focus. But structurally, the problem is similar when teaching about any form of privilege in that the psychology of guilt can be self-defeating, both personally and politically. What you describe as your own history actually reflects lots of ways in which you've taken responsibility and not just stayed stuck in the guilt phase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Gonzman: It&#8217;s not about reducing burdens. It&#8217;s about challenging relatively *privileged* people to actually make a difference. This requires acknowledging past injustices. I&#8217;m not advocating letting people off the hook. And yes, feeling guilty can often be a starting point. But if that&#8217;s where you stop, nothing is going to change for the better.</p>
<p>If I just feel guilty - which frankly is what your reply seems to suggest I do (making some pretty massive assumptions about my own ethnicity and intentions) - what are the odds that I&#8217;ll ask you how racism has affected your life? What are the odds that we can learn from each other&#8217;s experiences? Usually when people merely feel guilty and aren&#8217;t pushed to move toward a more politically productive position, they will stay silent, avoid dialogue, and remain as ignorant as they were at the start. Talking *critically* about race - or porn, for that matter - breaks a taboo, and I&#8217;m interested in getting past that taboo.</p>
<p>In short, I want my students to feel *more* of a burden to confront and deal with white privilege (and, of course, male privilege). Framing the issue in terms of responsibility rather than guilt is a way of sparking that productive process. It&#8217;s a way of both slipping past people&#8217;s defense mechanisms and (I hope) inspiring them to work toward a more just world.</p>
<p>And to Hugo: Of course there are major differences between racism, porn use, and lots of other things we might criticize. I mentioned the example of pedagogy in teaching about racism because I think it brings the tension between guilt and responsibility into particularly sharp focus. But structurally, the problem is similar when teaching about any form of privilege in that the psychology of guilt can be self-defeating, both personally and politically. What you describe as your own history actually reflects lots of ways in which you&#8217;ve taken responsibility and not just stayed stuck in the guilt phase.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gonzman</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162850</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gonzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162850</guid>
		<description>Jeez.

As one person who is of American Indian descent, can I say "Don't feel guilty on my account" and reduce your burdens a bit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeez.</p>
<p>As one person who is of American Indian descent, can I say &#8220;Don&#8217;t feel guilty on my account&#8221; and reduce your burdens a bit?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162768</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162768</guid>
		<description>Sungold, there's a colossal differenc between "feeling guilty" as a privileged white person because my ancestors owned slaves and feeling guilty because I used porn and participated in the exploitation of my fellow human feelings and the corroding of my own soul.  Indeed, feeling guilt isn't always healthy -- which is why every word I wrote was to be understood in the context of pornography use!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sungold, there&#8217;s a colossal differenc between &#8220;feeling guilty&#8221; as a privileged white person because my ancestors owned slaves and feeling guilty because I used porn and participated in the exploitation of my fellow human feelings and the corroding of my own soul.  Indeed, feeling guilt isn&#8217;t always healthy &#8212; which is why every word I wrote was to be understood in the context of pornography use!</p>
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		<title>By: Sungold</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162757</link>
		<dc:creator>Sungold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162757</guid>
		<description>Can I suggest a distinction beyond shame vs. guilt? In my experience, guilt can be as paralyzing as shame. 

To take one example: Like you, Hugo, I teach women's and gender studies. My students are mostly young, white, and economically privileged. They often just get defensive if they feel they're being asked to feel guilty about injustices past or present. 

So when we discuss racism, for instance, I try to reframe the issues as about responsibility rather than guilt. Otherwise, many of these privileged kids will throw up their hands and say, yes, slavery was terrible and so was Jim Crow, but hey, we didn't create these institutions, so why should we feel guilty? (And they're right; they're 18 or 20 years old, and they haven't wielded any serious power yet, though many of them will eventually.)

Emphasizing responsibility directs attention toward the future. It lets them say okay, horrible things happened in the past, and we didn't commit those crimes. But we're stuck with their legacy, we benefit from white privilege, so how can we now move forward toward a more just society?

By contrast, guilt looks backward. It lacks an imperative to act. And sometimes people will feel they've already "done" enough just by wallowing in guilt.

Now, I'm not arguing that there's never a place for guilt. Sometimes we need guilt - personally or politically - to help us acknowledge there's a problem in the first place. But once that acknowledgement is in place, guilt can actually be counterproductive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can I suggest a distinction beyond shame vs. guilt? In my experience, guilt can be as paralyzing as shame. </p>
<p>To take one example: Like you, Hugo, I teach women&#8217;s and gender studies. My students are mostly young, white, and economically privileged. They often just get defensive if they feel they&#8217;re being asked to feel guilty about injustices past or present. </p>
<p>So when we discuss racism, for instance, I try to reframe the issues as about responsibility rather than guilt. Otherwise, many of these privileged kids will throw up their hands and say, yes, slavery was terrible and so was Jim Crow, but hey, we didn&#8217;t create these institutions, so why should we feel guilty? (And they&#8217;re right; they&#8217;re 18 or 20 years old, and they haven&#8217;t wielded any serious power yet, though many of them will eventually.)</p>
<p>Emphasizing responsibility directs attention toward the future. It lets them say okay, horrible things happened in the past, and we didn&#8217;t commit those crimes. But we&#8217;re stuck with their legacy, we benefit from white privilege, so how can we now move forward toward a more just society?</p>
<p>By contrast, guilt looks backward. It lacks an imperative to act. And sometimes people will feel they&#8217;ve already &#8220;done&#8221; enough just by wallowing in guilt.</p>
<p>Now, I&#8217;m not arguing that there&#8217;s never a place for guilt. Sometimes we need guilt - personally or politically - to help us acknowledge there&#8217;s a problem in the first place. But once that acknowledgement is in place, guilt can actually be counterproductive.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Head</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162446</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Head</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/03/shame-and-self-hatred-guilt-and-self-esteem-part-two-of-the-series-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-masculinity/#comment-162446</guid>
		<description>I'm not convinced that masculinity, the way it has been socially constructed, doesn't have intrinsic rape tendencies that are more serious and more threatening than any new challenges posed by the porn industry.  And the feminine mystique is all about constant consent--sexual consent, and other forms of consent as well (labor, economic, political, religious, etc).  In the sort of context we're discussing here, isn't consent basically another word for submission?

So yeah, I think we should basically look at all of this and say "don't buy porn."  But I think we should also look at this and say: "Ask yourself how you're treating the women in your life."  Because porn, like all forms of expression, reflects reality more than it shapes reality.  Porn is exploitative because men are exploitative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not convinced that masculinity, the way it has been socially constructed, doesn&#8217;t have intrinsic rape tendencies that are more serious and more threatening than any new challenges posed by the porn industry.  And the feminine mystique is all about constant consent&#8211;sexual consent, and other forms of consent as well (labor, economic, political, religious, etc).  In the sort of context we&#8217;re discussing here, isn&#8217;t consent basically another word for submission?</p>
<p>So yeah, I think we should basically look at all of this and say &#8220;don&#8217;t buy porn.&#8221;  But I think we should also look at this and say: &#8220;Ask yourself how you&#8217;re treating the women in your life.&#8221;  Because porn, like all forms of expression, reflects reality more than it shapes reality.  Porn is exploitative because men are exploitative.</p>
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