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	<title>Comments on: Beyond heat and pleasure to joy and light: the third post on Robert Jensen, porn, and sexual ethics</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-406677</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-406677</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If [porn] is healthy then why do porn stars claim to have the least satisfying sexual relationships?&lt;/i&gt;

Probably because the people they end up dating expect them to act like porn stars all the time.  I view that as a fantasy/reality issue rather than one intrinsic to porn, but I expect you'll disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If [porn] is healthy then why do porn stars claim to have the least satisfying sexual relationships?</i></p>
<p>Probably because the people they end up dating expect them to act like porn stars all the time.  I view that as a fantasy/reality issue rather than one intrinsic to porn, but I expect you&#8217;ll disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: matey</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-406616</link>
		<dc:creator>matey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 21:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-406616</guid>
		<description>Love the post Debby, I agree with every thing you've said. Sexuality is an amazing and powerful thing, and something we can't afford to fake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the post Debby, I agree with every thing you&#8217;ve said. Sexuality is an amazing and powerful thing, and something we can&#8217;t afford to fake.</p>
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		<title>By: Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity &#124; Mordant Belle</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-406522</link>
		<dc:creator>Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity &#124; Mordant Belle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 19:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-406522</guid>
		<description>[...] Hugo Schwyzer&#8217;s Extensive Review: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Hugo Schwyzer&#8217;s Extensive Review: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Debby</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-169622</link>
		<dc:creator>Debby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 00:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-169622</guid>
		<description>I recently purchased this book and was sooooo pleased to read in print many of my own feelings about what is happening in our society regarding sexuality.  I think sex is probably the greatest physical gift we have to enjoy - body, mind and spirit.  Light is a perfect word and it can be truly transforming when two people are completely naked in all three aspects.  

I personally feel that people fight letting go of porn because they don't realize the reality is there is something that is far more satisfying and fulfilling - true connection with another through our sensuality.  

The argument that porn is healthy is out there for me.  If it is healthy then why do porn stars claim to have the least satisfying sexual relationships?  Many of them report having to dissociate during sex scenes in order to make it through it.  The women claim to experience pain and often get their insides torn up.  When people bring up Jenna - this is laughable.  All that money has not brought her a bit of happiness.  Read her book and you will hear her horror stories.  90% of all prostitutes, strippers and porn stars ADMIT to being sexually abused prior to getting into the industry.  Not all women that are sexually abused get in the sex industry but the majority that are in have been abused.  Most are addicted to drugs and alcohol if not to start with, eventually just to get through their job.  I challenge people (men especially) to read how these women truly feel about what is done to them in these videos.  It is so easy to dismiss these women as "whores", "sluts" and less than human but their not and most have very painful histories prior to and during their time in the sex industry.

Last but not least......since when did it become healthy and acceptable to make sexual activity a spectator sport?  Are we so uncreative and disconnected from our own sensual selves that we need to watch someone engaging in sex in order to access our own?  Pretty sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently purchased this book and was sooooo pleased to read in print many of my own feelings about what is happening in our society regarding sexuality.  I think sex is probably the greatest physical gift we have to enjoy - body, mind and spirit.  Light is a perfect word and it can be truly transforming when two people are completely naked in all three aspects.  </p>
<p>I personally feel that people fight letting go of porn because they don&#8217;t realize the reality is there is something that is far more satisfying and fulfilling - true connection with another through our sensuality.  </p>
<p>The argument that porn is healthy is out there for me.  If it is healthy then why do porn stars claim to have the least satisfying sexual relationships?  Many of them report having to dissociate during sex scenes in order to make it through it.  The women claim to experience pain and often get their insides torn up.  When people bring up Jenna - this is laughable.  All that money has not brought her a bit of happiness.  Read her book and you will hear her horror stories.  90% of all prostitutes, strippers and porn stars ADMIT to being sexually abused prior to getting into the industry.  Not all women that are sexually abused get in the sex industry but the majority that are in have been abused.  Most are addicted to drugs and alcohol if not to start with, eventually just to get through their job.  I challenge people (men especially) to read how these women truly feel about what is done to them in these videos.  It is so easy to dismiss these women as &#8220;whores&#8221;, &#8220;sluts&#8221; and less than human but their not and most have very painful histories prior to and during their time in the sex industry.</p>
<p>Last but not least&#8230;&#8230;since when did it become healthy and acceptable to make sexual activity a spectator sport?  Are we so uncreative and disconnected from our own sensual selves that we need to watch someone engaging in sex in order to access our own?  Pretty sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-165251</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 22:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-165251</guid>
		<description>I don't think, Kate, I've ever said "regular" sex was crucial, and if I have, I was typing in haste.  I do think sex matters, but as I've said time and again, eros and obligation are mortal enemies.  The moment we start trying to define "regular", we get into heaps of trouble.

It's important, I think, for couples to be able to talk openly and honestly about what sex means to them.  They need to ask and answer the question "What does sex mean to you?", as well as the questions I pose above.   Please understand, that my belief that every marriage/long-term relationship "needs" an erotic component isn't a recommendation of regular intercourse.  Taking some time away from conventional intercourse to explore other ways of being sexual, or even to explore non-sexual ways of feeling close and intimate, can be very good - not as a cure for low desire, but as an equally valid way of establishing and nurturing a bond.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think, Kate, I&#8217;ve ever said &#8220;regular&#8221; sex was crucial, and if I have, I was typing in haste.  I do think sex matters, but as I&#8217;ve said time and again, eros and obligation are mortal enemies.  The moment we start trying to define &#8220;regular&#8221;, we get into heaps of trouble.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s important, I think, for couples to be able to talk openly and honestly about what sex means to them.  They need to ask and answer the question &#8220;What does sex mean to you?&#8221;, as well as the questions I pose above.   Please understand, that my belief that every marriage/long-term relationship &#8220;needs&#8221; an erotic component isn&#8217;t a recommendation of regular intercourse.  Taking some time away from conventional intercourse to explore other ways of being sexual, or even to explore non-sexual ways of feeling close and intimate, can be very good - not as a cure for low desire, but as an equally valid way of establishing and nurturing a bond.</p>
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		<title>By: kate.d.</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-164928</link>
		<dc:creator>kate.d.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-164928</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;One of the many lies pornography tells is that if we aren’t feeling sexual, something is wrong; low desire is medicalized and becomes a problem to be treated. Rather than asking someone the question “Why don’t you feel like having sex?”, why not ask far better and more interesting questions: “Why should we have sex? What is its purpose, its meaning? Why should I be expected to want it?” And the answer to these questions has to be better than “But it’s natural” or “We’re in love, so we’re supposed to.”&lt;/i&gt;

i'm a little confused by this, in light of your previous writing about how you think regular sex is a crucial component of any healthy marriage. (that post generated a very interesting comment thread, btw!) how does the idea dovetail with the assertion that sex is a vital part of a marriage? i don't ask snarkily - i'm really wondering if/how that works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>One of the many lies pornography tells is that if we aren’t feeling sexual, something is wrong; low desire is medicalized and becomes a problem to be treated. Rather than asking someone the question “Why don’t you feel like having sex?”, why not ask far better and more interesting questions: “Why should we have sex? What is its purpose, its meaning? Why should I be expected to want it?” And the answer to these questions has to be better than “But it’s natural” or “We’re in love, so we’re supposed to.”</i></p>
<p>i&#8217;m a little confused by this, in light of your previous writing about how you think regular sex is a crucial component of any healthy marriage. (that post generated a very interesting comment thread, btw!) how does the idea dovetail with the assertion that sex is a vital part of a marriage? i don&#8217;t ask snarkily - i&#8217;m really wondering if/how that works.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-164383</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-164383</guid>
		<description>I read the review, Martin, and it is an interesting one -- except that the accusation that Jensen "cherrypicked" the most offensive porn doesn't hold.  He did pick the most popular DVD rentals and sales as reported by the adult industry.  Suppose someone wrote about hip-hop and confined the discussion largely to the likes of 50 Cent, the Game, and Kanye West -- and left out Mos Def.  The Mos Def people would be complaining, what about our guy?  But if the mission of the article was to talk about what is most likely to be consumed, it makes sense to focus on the best-sellers.  Same thing with porn.

I was pleased, however, to be lumped in in the comments section with Robert Jensen and John Stoltenberg.  That was pretty darned cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read the review, Martin, and it is an interesting one &#8212; except that the accusation that Jensen &#8220;cherrypicked&#8221; the most offensive porn doesn&#8217;t hold.  He did pick the most popular DVD rentals and sales as reported by the adult industry.  Suppose someone wrote about hip-hop and confined the discussion largely to the likes of 50 Cent, the Game, and Kanye West &#8212; and left out Mos Def.  The Mos Def people would be complaining, what about our guy?  But if the mission of the article was to talk about what is most likely to be consumed, it makes sense to focus on the best-sellers.  Same thing with porn.</p>
<p>I was pleased, however, to be lumped in in the comments section with Robert Jensen and John Stoltenberg.  That was pretty darned cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-164206</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 08:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-164206</guid>
		<description>I thought this was an interesting alternate take on Jensen's book.

http://sexinthepublicsquare.org/bookreview/getting-off</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought this was an interesting alternate take on Jensen&#8217;s book.</p>
<p><a href="http://sexinthepublicsquare.org/bookreview/getting-off" rel="nofollow">http://sexinthepublicsquare.org/bookreview/getting-off</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daisy Bond</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-163897</link>
		<dc:creator>Daisy Bond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 22:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-163897</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;We’ve had the sexual revolution; now we need a love revolution.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, what an amazing sentence! Yes, yes we do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>We’ve had the sexual revolution; now we need a love revolution.</i></p>
<p>Oh, what an amazing sentence! Yes, yes we do.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Head</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-163655</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Head</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/05/beyond-heat-and-pleasure-to-joy-and-light-the-third-post-on-robert-jensen-porn-and-sexual-ethics/#comment-163655</guid>
		<description>I can't speak to whether porn and fantasy are essential obstacles, but they can be used and are being used to reduce sexuality to a commodity--and encourage us to judge others, on some level, based on how well they fit our fantasies.

I have always seen sexuality as an instrument of intimacy, a means to a greater end, and not as something worth pursuing on its own merits.  That's why I practice abstinence.  Not necessarily until marriage (truth be told, I've lost most of my respect for marriage as an institution), but certainly until I find myself in a relationship where sex can be a tool for greater intimacy.  And unlike sex-based relationships, intimacy-based relationships are relationships that you have to build.  You can't just go out and pick them up as if they were pleasurable commodities.

What scares me, to be honest, is not that people get off on porn and fantasy.  That, in and of itself, isn't something that concerns me very much--I think the porn industry is exploitative but most industries ultimately are and, as brownfemipower so eloquently put it, &lt;a href="http://brownfemipower.com/?p=1995" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;"there's more than one way to get fucked."&lt;/a&gt;  What concerns me more is that the 21st-century Western ideal of what a relationship is has been built around porn and fantasy, and the shallow, mechanical relationships that result from that dynamic are destroying our culture, and that young women (and young men, for that matter) are literally killing themselves over it.  We've had the sexual revolution; now we need a love revolution.  And I don't see one on the horizon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t speak to whether porn and fantasy are essential obstacles, but they can be used and are being used to reduce sexuality to a commodity&#8211;and encourage us to judge others, on some level, based on how well they fit our fantasies.</p>
<p>I have always seen sexuality as an instrument of intimacy, a means to a greater end, and not as something worth pursuing on its own merits.  That&#8217;s why I practice abstinence.  Not necessarily until marriage (truth be told, I&#8217;ve lost most of my respect for marriage as an institution), but certainly until I find myself in a relationship where sex can be a tool for greater intimacy.  And unlike sex-based relationships, intimacy-based relationships are relationships that you have to build.  You can&#8217;t just go out and pick them up as if they were pleasurable commodities.</p>
<p>What scares me, to be honest, is not that people get off on porn and fantasy.  That, in and of itself, isn&#8217;t something that concerns me very much&#8211;I think the porn industry is exploitative but most industries ultimately are and, as brownfemipower so eloquently put it, <a href="http://brownfemipower.com/?p=1995" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">&#8220;there&#8217;s more than one way to get fucked.&#8221;</a>  What concerns me more is that the 21st-century Western ideal of what a relationship is has been built around porn and fantasy, and the shallow, mechanical relationships that result from that dynamic are destroying our culture, and that young women (and young men, for that matter) are literally killing themselves over it.  We&#8217;ve had the sexual revolution; now we need a love revolution.  And I don&#8217;t see one on the horizon.</p>
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