Comments on: “When you are persecuted… flee”: some thoughts on the Gospel and domestic violence http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/ Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:12:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-168994 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:34:42 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-168994 catsc, that's a fair criticism -- I think I'd rewrite it this way: “Indeed, by failing to help an abused person to leave a violent or chronically unfaithful relationship, we make two errors: we fail to hold the abusive partner accountable, and we fail to value the abused person as God values them." catsc, that’s a fair criticism — I think I’d rewrite it this way:

“Indeed, by failing to help an abused person to leave a violent or chronically unfaithful relationship, we make two errors: we fail to hold the abusive partner accountable, and we fail to value the abused person as God values them.”

]]> By: catsc http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-168883 catsc Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:03:39 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-168883 "Indeed, by staying in a violent or chronically unfaithful relationship, we make two errors: we fail to hold our partner accountable, and we fail to value ourselves as God values us." This is victim blaming. While the idea that one should stay in a violent realationship, because divorce is wrong is disgusting. However, to say that not leaving an abusive situation is a sin is also disgusting. Do you realize how much this rings of "Why doesn't she just leave?" It's not always possible to leave, and it's never the victim's fault. There have been recent studies that came out which showed that the chances of a victim being killed go up if they leave. Often abusers are so good at abusing that the victim doesn't realize that they are being abused, and often thinks they deserve the inhumane treatment. "If we don’t show a cheater or an abuser that there are consequences for their repeated failures then we fail in one of our key spousal roles:" No, the abuser fails, Hugo. It's not up to the victim to make the abuser face consequences. It's up to the abuser to not abuse. “Indeed, by staying in a violent or chronically unfaithful relationship, we make two errors: we fail to hold our partner accountable, and we fail to value ourselves as God values us.” This is victim blaming. While the idea that one should stay in a violent realationship, because divorce is wrong is disgusting. However, to say that not leaving an abusive situation is a sin is also disgusting. Do you realize how much this rings of “Why doesn’t she just leave?” It’s not always possible to leave, and it’s never the victim’s fault. There have been recent studies that came out which showed that the chances of a victim being killed go up if they leave. Often abusers are so good at abusing that the victim doesn’t realize that they are being abused, and often thinks they deserve the inhumane treatment. “If we don’t show a cheater or an abuser that there are consequences for their repeated failures then we fail in one of our key spousal roles:” No, the abuser fails, Hugo. It’s not up to the victim to make the abuser face consequences. It’s up to the abuser to not abuse.

]]> By: Daisy Bond http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166744 Daisy Bond Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:39:07 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166744 Awesome post. <i>For centuries, priests and pastors have used Bible verses to encourage women to stay in abusive situations, counseling them that their suffering is part of the Christian life.</i> I think that's a great example of the sort of problems that happen when a religion gets institutionalized and starts denying regular people their connection to God and ability to understand writings and teachings for themselves. If a person has been taught that only her priest or pastor has access to God, that only an elite class can understand scripture, she is forced to accept their damaging interpretations even against her own intuition and knowledge. That causes two layers of problems: the direct damage of the flawed interpretations, accompanied by a nice helping of confusion, guilt, and self-doubt when those ideas don't make sense and/or cause problems. Awesome post.

For centuries, priests and pastors have used Bible verses to encourage women to stay in abusive situations, counseling them that their suffering is part of the Christian life.

I think that’s a great example of the sort of problems that happen when a religion gets institutionalized and starts denying regular people their connection to God and ability to understand writings and teachings for themselves. If a person has been taught that only her priest or pastor has access to God, that only an elite class can understand scripture, she is forced to accept their damaging interpretations even against her own intuition and knowledge. That causes two layers of problems: the direct damage of the flawed interpretations, accompanied by a nice helping of confusion, guilt, and self-doubt when those ideas don’t make sense and/or cause problems.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166666 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:19:49 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166666 I love "Proverbs of Ashes" and wrote a long post about it in 2003, on my now defunct and lost "blogspot" blog. Perhaps the wayback machine can find it... And as for Brio... sigh. May the girls who read it go through the same trajectory that you did, Sarah. I love “Proverbs of Ashes” and wrote a long post about it in 2003, on my now defunct and lost “blogspot” blog. Perhaps the wayback machine can find it…

And as for Brio… sigh. May the girls who read it go through the same trajectory that you did, Sarah.

]]> By: Mermade http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166658 Mermade Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:10:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166658 If you are interested in reading more about this, you should check out the book <i> Proverbs of Ashes: Violence, Redemptive Suffering and the Search for What Saves Us </i> by Rebecca Ann Parker and Rita Nakashma Brock. When the Happy Feminist posted about wifely submission awhile back, one of the commenters (Chalice Chick) recommended this book. I bought it and found it extremely insightful. Although I do not endure physical abuse on a day-to-day basis (though it's happened before -- it's rare, but it does happen), my mother always says the she must "pray for my father" and hope God changes him. I don't think she realizes that her response - or lack of one - contributes to why I am quite skeptical about identifying myself as a conservative Christian these days. Another thing: I was looking through Brio's "Dear Susie" advice column a couple weeks ago. Girls frequently write to her about dressing modestly. In every case, Susie (the editor in chief) writes that it is our responsibility as girls to dress in a way that won't cause "our brothers to stumble." I don't think that they realize that the same thinking is used to rationalize abusive behavior. If a man is sexually harassing us, then it is our fault, because we should have dressed more modestly. In other words, it is our responsibility to ensure that we don't get harassed, same as it is our responsibility to pray for our perpetrators and hope for the best. All of it discourages male accountability and encourages female martyrdom. If you are interested in reading more about this, you should check out the book Proverbs of Ashes: Violence, Redemptive Suffering and the Search for What Saves Us by Rebecca Ann Parker and Rita Nakashma Brock. When the Happy Feminist posted about wifely submission awhile back, one of the commenters (Chalice Chick) recommended this book. I bought it and found it extremely insightful. Although I do not endure physical abuse on a day-to-day basis (though it’s happened before — it’s rare, but it does happen), my mother always says the she must “pray for my father” and hope God changes him. I don’t think she realizes that her response - or lack of one - contributes to why I am quite skeptical about identifying myself as a conservative Christian these days.

Another thing: I was looking through Brio’s “Dear Susie” advice column a couple weeks ago. Girls frequently write to her about dressing modestly. In every case, Susie (the editor in chief) writes that it is our responsibility as girls to dress in a way that won’t cause “our brothers to stumble.” I don’t think that they realize that the same thinking is used to rationalize abusive behavior. If a man is sexually harassing us, then it is our fault, because we should have dressed more modestly. In other words, it is our responsibility to ensure that we don’t get harassed, same as it is our responsibility to pray for our perpetrators and hope for the best. All of it discourages male accountability and encourages female martyrdom.

]]> By: Sneha http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166643 Sneha Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:42:06 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/10/when-you-are-persecuted-flee-some-thoughts-on-the-gospel-and-domestic-violence/#comment-166643 really, no pun intended, but this hit home. i have never thought of that verse in that light. thanks for flipping the switch. it means quite a bit. really, no pun intended, but this hit home. i have never thought of that verse in that light. thanks for flipping the switch. it means quite a bit.

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