Yeah. I think that’s the best way to put it. A lot of die-hard pro-lifers probably would think I’m wishy-washy on this, and maybe even pro-choice, because I am sympathetic to many secular feminist arguments regarding abortion. At the same time, my point still stands: I could not accompany someone to get an abortion, I could never get one myself, and I believe that life begins at implantation. I just don’t think that jailing abortionists is a good solution to ending abortion. I think the solution lies in creating a more compassionate and empathetic world for women. I worked at a pro-life pregnancy help center once, where they collected lots of baby items for girls who could not afford them. That’s how I think we could end abortion — by helping women out as much as possible, not jailing them. Again, it’s complicated. I blog and comment because I’m still figuring myself out. In any case, thanks for your insight, mythago. It makes me think. :-)

But for somebody who is pro-life who does believe “abortion stops a beating heart”, who does want abortion to be illegal and doctors punished, why is the question “How much jail time should she do?” so hard to answer?

There are really only three reasons that come to mind: they don’t believe it’s murder (your position); they believe women are incapable of not wanting to be mothers, and can only want an abortion if they are led astray (Neuhaus); or, and this will never be stated explicitly, it’s politically bad juju and you’re better off going after the abortion doctors, who are fewer and have less support.

Mythago: Still waiting to hear why this is a ‘difficult’ question for a pro-lifer to answer.

I had to mull over both these comments for a couple of days. A couple months ago, the Los Angeles Times published an article from a pro-life perspective that pretty much summed up my views on abortion. The basis for which abortion is justified or unjustifed lies upon your views regarding when life begins. I believe that human life begins at implantation, but I will never know for sure. So, I am not pro-life because I know when life does or does not begin. I am pro-life because I don’t know when life begins. Therefore, I am not willing to support laws that would lock up abortionists and women who seek abortions. If a one of my female friends were to get pregnant and confide in me that they didn’t know what they should do, I would do everything in my power to get her the help she needed in order to keep the baby. I would love and support her no matter what. But I could not accompany her, in good conscience, to a Planned Parenthood to get an abortion. I would not shun her for it, but I could not drive her to the clinic, because in my heart, I am against abortion.

This is a difficult question for pro-lifers to answer because it’s not about locking people up, it’s about how you would treat a woman if she wanted an abortion. On the same note, I could not lock abortionists or women up for life because the answer as to when life begins - and the issue of abortion in general - is too complicated, too grey, too sensitive, for hard-and-fast answer, at least for me.

Ah. So your original analogy doesn’t work either.

Still waiting to hear why this is a ‘difficult’ question for a pro-lifer to answer.

You are proving hugo’s poing. He is saying they are not analogous situations.

Please read it again!

Hm. Is there one country where it is 100% legal for mothers to murder their children, born or unborn?

Born, no. Unborn, yes.

Hm. Is there one country where it is 100% legal for mothers to murder their children, born or unborn?

And it’s pretty obvious that in societies where honor killings are approved (if not mandatory), the victims don’t have to do anything at all.

Um, your attempt to connect abortion to honor killings missed the mark completely.

Um, Mythago was the one who brought up honor killings in this context, not me.

Furthermore, you now have outright contradicted what you said earlier about men never having the right to kill their kids.

Hogwash. First, my original point was about societies whose values ours can identify with, not societies whose values we find abhorrent (and therefore, worse than useless when arguing over what rights women ought to enjoy in ours). Second, even if we do include such backward societies in our analysis, my original point - that men have never enjoyed a general right to “kill their own kids, if it suits them” - stands. To the best of my knowledge, “honor” killings are not legal anywhere, and even where they are more-or-less tolerated, the victim generally had to do something (or at least, the perp had to believe she had). To disprove my original point, even in the most technical sense, you’ll have to produce at least one country in which it is 100% legal for fathers to murder their children, born or unborn, simply because they want to. Good luck.