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	<title>Comments on: A note on Blair&#8217;s conversion, and on missing Rome</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 01:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-183190</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 07:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-183190</guid>
		<description>The priest was lying. Children are not made illegitimate by annulment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The priest was lying. Children are not made illegitimate by annulment.</p>
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		<title>By: ks</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-182907</link>
		<dc:creator>ks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 00:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-182907</guid>
		<description>I understand exactly how you feel about Catholicism.  I was raised Catholic, but left the church behind a long time ago and am an avowed atheist these days.  Even aside from my disbelief in God, though, I have serious, serious issues with the Church and will probably never reconcile myself with some of the teachings (particularly birth control/abortion/pretty much anything regarding reproduction and the rights and humanity of women).  But it still feels like home.  I love the ceremony and solemnity of mass and the community of church and I'll probably always miss it a little bit and still call myself a Catholic, even though I'm really not these days.

And incidentally, the divorce/annulment issue was what sealed my mother's breach with the church.  Her and my dad divorced about five years ago, after almost 30 years together.  They were married young (and pregnant) and had fallen out of romantic love long before, but they had some issues that they couldn't get past and decided to split up.  Once Mom started dating again, she looked into an annulment, but the priest told her flat out (and in a decidedly non-tactful way) that if she did, the church would consider her to have never married and that my sisters and I would be illegitimate in the eyes of the church.  She wasn't willing to say that her marriage (and they're still good friends) never happened and she certainly wasn't about to say that her children are illegitimate (she's very old school on the whole marriage, then kids question, and in fact, I was exactly the reason they got married in the first place).  She got pissed and hasn't been back to mass, other than the odd wedding or funeral, since.  It makes her incredibly sad, though, to not be in the church anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand exactly how you feel about Catholicism.  I was raised Catholic, but left the church behind a long time ago and am an avowed atheist these days.  Even aside from my disbelief in God, though, I have serious, serious issues with the Church and will probably never reconcile myself with some of the teachings (particularly birth control/abortion/pretty much anything regarding reproduction and the rights and humanity of women).  But it still feels like home.  I love the ceremony and solemnity of mass and the community of church and I&#8217;ll probably always miss it a little bit and still call myself a Catholic, even though I&#8217;m really not these days.</p>
<p>And incidentally, the divorce/annulment issue was what sealed my mother&#8217;s breach with the church.  Her and my dad divorced about five years ago, after almost 30 years together.  They were married young (and pregnant) and had fallen out of romantic love long before, but they had some issues that they couldn&#8217;t get past and decided to split up.  Once Mom started dating again, she looked into an annulment, but the priest told her flat out (and in a decidedly non-tactful way) that if she did, the church would consider her to have never married and that my sisters and I would be illegitimate in the eyes of the church.  She wasn&#8217;t willing to say that her marriage (and they&#8217;re still good friends) never happened and she certainly wasn&#8217;t about to say that her children are illegitimate (she&#8217;s very old school on the whole marriage, then kids question, and in fact, I was exactly the reason they got married in the first place).  She got pissed and hasn&#8217;t been back to mass, other than the odd wedding or funeral, since.  It makes her incredibly sad, though, to not be in the church anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181986</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 18:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181986</guid>
		<description>Mermade, that is a long post that will show up eventually...

Robert, thank you.  I didn't feel judged harshly.   I have never claimed that actions shouldn't have consequences.  My divorces and remarriages are real events, and though God's forgiveness has wiped clean the slate, that doesn't change the fact that they really happened.  And the Church, in its ancient wisdom, decrees that communion is only for those whose circumstances are less, uh, messy than my own.  I can disagree with that, even lament that -- and accept that all at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mermade, that is a long post that will show up eventually&#8230;</p>
<p>Robert, thank you.  I didn&#8217;t feel judged harshly.   I have never claimed that actions shouldn&#8217;t have consequences.  My divorces and remarriages are real events, and though God&#8217;s forgiveness has wiped clean the slate, that doesn&#8217;t change the fact that they really happened.  And the Church, in its ancient wisdom, decrees that communion is only for those whose circumstances are less, uh, messy than my own.  I can disagree with that, even lament that &#8212; and accept that all at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181945</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181945</guid>
		<description>Luck and grace in my case; I meant to (but didn't) indicate that I don't judge Hugo harshly in this matter. My own MIL is barred from communion, though she remained in the church, and I see firsthand the pain she goes through from being denied the Eucharist.

I personally don't live up to church teaching in any number of areas of life, but (luck again) they aren't &lt;i&gt;public&lt;/i&gt; areas of life. So I should have acknowledged that, hey, whited sepulchre, right here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luck and grace in my case; I meant to (but didn&#8217;t) indicate that I don&#8217;t judge Hugo harshly in this matter. My own MIL is barred from communion, though she remained in the church, and I see firsthand the pain she goes through from being denied the Eucharist.</p>
<p>I personally don&#8217;t live up to church teaching in any number of areas of life, but (luck again) they aren&#8217;t <i>public</i> areas of life. So I should have acknowledged that, hey, whited sepulchre, right here.</p>
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		<title>By: Mermade</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181937</link>
		<dc:creator>Mermade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181937</guid>
		<description>This is probably a long conversation, but I wonder why you believe that the truest church is Roman. Such a statement encourages this budding Catholic, of course, but I am just curious to hear you go into a little more detail on that. (Maybe a post for another day... or something to talk about later.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is probably a long conversation, but I wonder why you believe that the truest church is Roman. Such a statement encourages this budding Catholic, of course, but I am just curious to hear you go into a little more detail on that. (Maybe a post for another day&#8230; or something to talk about later.)</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181932</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181932</guid>
		<description>Oddly, here, I agree with Robert.  I'm not lobbying the Church to change its position on divorce.  I am sad that my own life and the Church's teachings are irreconciliable, but it's the Church's prerogative to say "You are not welcome at the communion rail."  I know enough to go where I am welcome.  Let the "bread and wine made holy" be for those who have had the luck, the grace, or the will to match their private affairs to Church teaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oddly, here, I agree with Robert.  I&#8217;m not lobbying the Church to change its position on divorce.  I am sad that my own life and the Church&#8217;s teachings are irreconciliable, but it&#8217;s the Church&#8217;s prerogative to say &#8220;You are not welcome at the communion rail.&#8221;  I know enough to go where I am welcome.  Let the &#8220;bread and wine made holy&#8221; be for those who have had the luck, the grace, or the will to match their private affairs to Church teaching.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181929</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 17:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181929</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It seems to me that you, too, might still be a Catholic were it not for the Church’s stauch views on divorce. I don’t understand why the Church is so reluctant to even  recognize  divorce.&lt;/i&gt;

Possibly because if the Church easily recognized divorce, it would include people like Hugo who have divorced three times. Which wouldn't exactly be a testimonial to the Church's marital teachings.

The difficulty with taking things seriously is that you have to, well, take them seriously. If we have a teaching about marriage and we actually believe it, then people who won't or can't live that teaching can't be part of the community. Hugo couldn't or wouldn't live the teaching; so he's out. We have to decide which is more important: inclusiveness, or fidelity to what we believe is the truth. Catholics choose fidelity on this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>It seems to me that you, too, might still be a Catholic were it not for the Church’s stauch views on divorce. I don’t understand why the Church is so reluctant to even  recognize  divorce.</i></p>
<p>Possibly because if the Church easily recognized divorce, it would include people like Hugo who have divorced three times. Which wouldn&#8217;t exactly be a testimonial to the Church&#8217;s marital teachings.</p>
<p>The difficulty with taking things seriously is that you have to, well, take them seriously. If we have a teaching about marriage and we actually believe it, then people who won&#8217;t or can&#8217;t live that teaching can&#8217;t be part of the community. Hugo couldn&#8217;t or wouldn&#8217;t live the teaching; so he&#8217;s out. We have to decide which is more important: inclusiveness, or fidelity to what we believe is the truth. Catholics choose fidelity on this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Mermade</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181646</link>
		<dc:creator>Mermade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181646</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; There are churches, and then there is The Church. And while all the churches are somehow part of the Body of Christ, there is still for me a sense that the truest Church is Roman. &lt;/i&gt;

:-)

As you know, I was raised Catholic, from Baptism to Confirmation (I even received my Sacrament of Confirmation from the infamous Cardinal Roger Mahony in 2003.) I have attended church services at other places, like Paznaz, and a couple of other Protestant churches in the area. But in my heart, I will always be a Catholic. It seems to me that you, too, might still be a Catholic were it not for the Church's stauch views on divorce. I don't understand why the Church is so reluctant to even &lt;i&gt; recognize &lt;/i&gt; divorce. Thier rules on it motivate a lot of Catholics to stay in abusive relationships in order to avoid shame from the church, and therefore God. But, like you say, every church has it's issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> There are churches, and then there is The Church. And while all the churches are somehow part of the Body of Christ, there is still for me a sense that the truest Church is Roman. </i></p>
<p>:-)</p>
<p>As you know, I was raised Catholic, from Baptism to Confirmation (I even received my Sacrament of Confirmation from the infamous Cardinal Roger Mahony in 2003.) I have attended church services at other places, like Paznaz, and a couple of other Protestant churches in the area. But in my heart, I will always be a Catholic. It seems to me that you, too, might still be a Catholic were it not for the Church&#8217;s stauch views on divorce. I don&#8217;t understand why the Church is so reluctant to even <i> recognize </i> divorce. Thier rules on it motivate a lot of Catholics to stay in abusive relationships in order to avoid shame from the church, and therefore God. But, like you say, every church has it&#8217;s issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181328</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 01:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181328</guid>
		<description>Gonz, I am absolutely certain that my first marriage was valid, sacramental; entered into by two people who were very young, very naive, and very foolish.  But foolishness is not the same as inability, and naivete is not the same as deception.

You're right that I could have stayed chaste and divorced, too, but that wasn't an option.  I have to say, on a gut level, I loathe annulments -- just like I loathe mulligans in golf.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gonz, I am absolutely certain that my first marriage was valid, sacramental; entered into by two people who were very young, very naive, and very foolish.  But foolishness is not the same as inability, and naivete is not the same as deception.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that I could have stayed chaste and divorced, too, but that wasn&#8217;t an option.  I have to say, on a gut level, I loathe annulments &#8212; just like I loathe mulligans in golf.</p>
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		<title>By: The Gonzman</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181307</link>
		<dc:creator>The Gonzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2007/12/26/a-note-on-blairs-conversion-and-on-missing-rome/#comment-181307</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;And with the divorce&lt;/b&gt; came the bar from the eucharist. No more wafer and wine made into bread and blood for me, at least not in the Roman style.&lt;/i&gt;

It's only with the remarriage that the bar came, and even then such things are not absolute.

In my case, the marriage with Wife number 1 came while we were both non-believers, and she was unbaptized; when she became a believer she never baptized anyway, and was vehemently anti-catholic, coming from a rather vitriolic anti-"papist" masonic family.

She screwed me around on an annulment for a long time.  Finally I was told by a priest of something called "The Internal Forum."

Basically stated, since I was sure of the truth, that I was entitled to a decree of nullity due to Petrine Privilege - BUT JUST COULD NOT &lt;b&gt;PROVE&lt;/b&gt; IT - so long as I resolved not to cause scandal by flouting the whole divorced and remarried situation, I  could receive communion.

(Not married, won't be, so not an issue now.  Still.)

Thing is, this isn't widely advertised - and is even actively discouraged - because it is subject to a wide range of abuse.  You have to be 100%, dead, no holds barred, no subjective interpretation positively sure before you are entitled to this.  Not merely biblically, but by canon law and the magisterium.  You have no wiggle room.  And it is on your honor.

So if you are 100% certain, according to canon law, that your first marriage was not valid or sacramental in nature - receive away, keeping in mind not to cause scandal.  (Because subsequent ones, since you lacked proper dispensation and form, are invalid on their face.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><b>And with the divorce</b> came the bar from the eucharist. No more wafer and wine made into bread and blood for me, at least not in the Roman style.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s only with the remarriage that the bar came, and even then such things are not absolute.</p>
<p>In my case, the marriage with Wife number 1 came while we were both non-believers, and she was unbaptized; when she became a believer she never baptized anyway, and was vehemently anti-catholic, coming from a rather vitriolic anti-&#8221;papist&#8221; masonic family.</p>
<p>She screwed me around on an annulment for a long time.  Finally I was told by a priest of something called &#8220;The Internal Forum.&#8221;</p>
<p>Basically stated, since I was sure of the truth, that I was entitled to a decree of nullity due to Petrine Privilege - BUT JUST COULD NOT <b>PROVE</b> IT - so long as I resolved not to cause scandal by flouting the whole divorced and remarried situation, I  could receive communion.</p>
<p>(Not married, won&#8217;t be, so not an issue now.  Still.)</p>
<p>Thing is, this isn&#8217;t widely advertised - and is even actively discouraged - because it is subject to a wide range of abuse.  You have to be 100%, dead, no holds barred, no subjective interpretation positively sure before you are entitled to this.  Not merely biblically, but by canon law and the magisterium.  You have no wiggle room.  And it is on your honor.</p>
<p>So if you are 100% certain, according to canon law, that your first marriage was not valid or sacramental in nature - receive away, keeping in mind not to cause scandal.  (Because subsequent ones, since you lacked proper dispensation and form, are invalid on their face.)</p>
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