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	<title>Comments on: Guys in love: celebrating the new SUNY Oswego study on teenage boys and relationships</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 02:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8230; that kids can&#8217;t fall in love and feel the same</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-239268</link>
		<dc:creator>Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; &#8230; that kids can&#8217;t fall in love and feel the same</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-239268</guid>
		<description>[...] Jim Croce may have never heard it said, but many of the rest of us have heard it said repeatedly that teenagers aren&#8217;t really in love, especially teenage boys. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Jim Croce may have never heard it said, but many of the rest of us have heard it said repeatedly that teenagers aren&#8217;t really in love, especially teenage boys. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: jennyfields</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234933</link>
		<dc:creator>jennyfields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 02:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234933</guid>
		<description>This is why I'm so interested in feminism reaching men.  If we were all released from these gender stereotypes and were allowed to develop as people instead of men or women, I think a great number of basic conflicts would be lessened or eliminated all together.  Masculinity and Femininity are very confining boxes.  I'd like to see an embrace of Humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why I&#8217;m so interested in feminism reaching men.  If we were all released from these gender stereotypes and were allowed to develop as people instead of men or women, I think a great number of basic conflicts would be lessened or eliminated all together.  Masculinity and Femininity are very confining boxes.  I&#8217;d like to see an embrace of Humanity.</p>
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		<title>By: Christina</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234615</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234615</guid>
		<description>One more thing...
&lt;blockquote&gt;(I wish Professor Smiler hadn’t used the phrase “horrible stereotype”. I wince at the implication that wanting sex for pleasure is “horrible”. After all, both men and women do sometimes pursue sex outside of the context of an enduring relationship. While dishonesty and manipulation are indeed “horrible”, the pursuit of pleasure for its own sake need not be accompanied by deceit or abuse. It’s “slut-shaming” at its most tiresome to suggest otherwise.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree with your assessment that pursuing pleasure for the sake of pleasure is not a bad thing.  Dishonesty and manipulation are.  However that "horrible stereotype" is of teenage boys who lie, manipulate and use teenage girls, not only for sexual pleasure but also to gain esteem with their friends.  Therefore it is a "horrible stereotype".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>(I wish Professor Smiler hadn’t used the phrase “horrible stereotype”. I wince at the implication that wanting sex for pleasure is “horrible”. After all, both men and women do sometimes pursue sex outside of the context of an enduring relationship. While dishonesty and manipulation are indeed “horrible”, the pursuit of pleasure for its own sake need not be accompanied by deceit or abuse. It’s “slut-shaming” at its most tiresome to suggest otherwise.)</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree with your assessment that pursuing pleasure for the sake of pleasure is not a bad thing.  Dishonesty and manipulation are.  However that &#8220;horrible stereotype&#8221; is of teenage boys who lie, manipulate and use teenage girls, not only for sexual pleasure but also to gain esteem with their friends.  Therefore it is a &#8220;horrible stereotype&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Christina</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234607</link>
		<dc:creator>Christina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234607</guid>
		<description>This post goes excellently with another post/study that I read a couple of weeks ago.  

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/01/30/yay-for-teen-sex/

Follow the links to the actual study; it is worth reading.  The gyst is that the Dutch have very different attitudes about teenage sex and love.  For them, both are natural (both that teenagers can love each other and that two people in love will want to have sex).  The Dutch trust the their teenages to make the decision for themselves (the decision being when they are ready) and talk to their children about how to be responsible.  The result is that they have a much lower teen pregnancy and abortion rate than we do.  

The main contrast is that American parents (many) don't believe that teenagers can love each other.  Nor do they believe that teenagers can be responsible enough to make decisions for themselves.  

I remember my mother telling (over and over again) that men only want sex, even though I dated the same guy for 4 years when I was a teenager.  Whether she knew that we were having sex or not, he was obviously not only in it for the sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post goes excellently with another post/study that I read a couple of weeks ago.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/01/30/yay-for-teen-sex/" rel="nofollow">http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/01/30/yay-for-teen-sex/</a></p>
<p>Follow the links to the actual study; it is worth reading.  The gyst is that the Dutch have very different attitudes about teenage sex and love.  For them, both are natural (both that teenagers can love each other and that two people in love will want to have sex).  The Dutch trust the their teenages to make the decision for themselves (the decision being when they are ready) and talk to their children about how to be responsible.  The result is that they have a much lower teen pregnancy and abortion rate than we do.  </p>
<p>The main contrast is that American parents (many) don&#8217;t believe that teenagers can love each other.  Nor do they believe that teenagers can be responsible enough to make decisions for themselves.  </p>
<p>I remember my mother telling (over and over again) that men only want sex, even though I dated the same guy for 4 years when I was a teenager.  Whether she knew that we were having sex or not, he was obviously not only in it for the sex.</p>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234562</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234562</guid>
		<description>"More troublingly, the many who are sensitive and interested in relationship may begin to believe that those “emotional” aspects of their identity are inconsistent with “real” masculinity."
-In my experience as a teenage girl, this thinking often fed directly into the NiceGuy(tm) phenomenon. Guys who accepted the "emotional aspects of their identity" also often still accepted the myth that most guys only want sex and nothing else. As a result, they'd believe they were special and uniquely able to be the emotional guy that they were taught every girl wanted. They saw it as their advantage in the dating scene. When a girl rejected their emotional appeals, the guys didn't understand why. It didn't fit with their understanding of conventional stereotypes: girls wanted emotional guys, they were emotional guys, other guys weren't, so why would girls still reject them? It was frustrating to me as a teen to know so many of these guys. They couldn't believe that I may want just sex, or that other guys besides themselves might want something other than sex alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;More troublingly, the many who are sensitive and interested in relationship may begin to believe that those “emotional” aspects of their identity are inconsistent with “real” masculinity.&#8221;<br />
-In my experience as a teenage girl, this thinking often fed directly into the NiceGuy(tm) phenomenon. Guys who accepted the &#8220;emotional aspects of their identity&#8221; also often still accepted the myth that most guys only want sex and nothing else. As a result, they&#8217;d believe they were special and uniquely able to be the emotional guy that they were taught every girl wanted. They saw it as their advantage in the dating scene. When a girl rejected their emotional appeals, the guys didn&#8217;t understand why. It didn&#8217;t fit with their understanding of conventional stereotypes: girls wanted emotional guys, they were emotional guys, other guys weren&#8217;t, so why would girls still reject them? It was frustrating to me as a teen to know so many of these guys. They couldn&#8217;t believe that I may want just sex, or that other guys besides themselves might want something other than sex alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Pandagon :: News flash: Boys do not actually find girls fundamentally repulsive :: February :: 2008</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234556</link>
		<dc:creator>Pandagon :: News flash: Boys do not actually find girls fundamentally repulsive :: February :: 2008</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234556</guid>
		<description>[...] (Via.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] (Via.) [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234540</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/18/guys-in-love-celebrating-the-new-suny-oswego-study-on-teenage-boys-and-relationships/#comment-234540</guid>
		<description>Hugo, I just wanted you to know that several of your posts (and now this one) have become a regular part of our discussion with our children (boys ages 15 and 11, girl age 13) about sex and sexuality.  I particularly like the wisdom shown in this post and in the post regarding the opposite of rape being enthusiasm not mere consent.  Thank you for your insight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo, I just wanted you to know that several of your posts (and now this one) have become a regular part of our discussion with our children (boys ages 15 and 11, girl age 13) about sex and sexuality.  I particularly like the wisdom shown in this post and in the post regarding the opposite of rape being enthusiasm not mere consent.  Thank you for your insight.</p>
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