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	<title>Comments on: Grieving the best choice</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: bmmg39</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-248034</link>
		<dc:creator>bmmg39</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-248034</guid>
		<description>"The textbooks are clear that the two-week embryo is fully human, but personhood itself requires sentience, and that is not there yet."

I will clarify that the textbooks are not only clear that the two-week embryo is human, but also that (s)he is A human. And while I've seen some people attempt to create some sort of distinction between "human being" and "person," I opt to lean towards science and use the terms interchangeably.

"The reason I can support abortion rights while being a vegan rests on the notion of sentience and the capacity to feel pain. It is why later-term abortions do trouble me more than earlier ones."

Careful, speaking too much about "sentience" will turn you into Peter Singer, who, as well all know, is a lunatic who supports infanticide. If I see an ant walking across the floor, I could simply step on him/her and (s)he would die instantly, hardly suffering at all. So do I do it? Of course not, because, suffering pain or otherwise, that ant has a life that possesses value. As for our species, we are human beings long before we possess the ability to feel pain.

"That’s a big part of why every feminist I know — including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion — is a strong supporter of contraception."

What is your definition of "support"? I don't know anyone who is in favor of making contraceptives illegal -- provided that they are true contraceptives, rather than abortafacient agents. But that doesn't mean that everybody thinks that using artificial methods of birth control is always the best course of action, or that the "contraceptive mentality" that a child is equivalent to a venereal disease (to be prevented at all costs!) is at all healthy. I believe that abortion gained such a foothold (to the chagrin of both pro-lifers and some pro-choicers) because this contraceptive mentality was already so popular. Mind you, this is not to condemn everyone who uses contraceptives, but those who eschew them aren't backward-thinking, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The textbooks are clear that the two-week embryo is fully human, but personhood itself requires sentience, and that is not there yet.&#8221;</p>
<p>I will clarify that the textbooks are not only clear that the two-week embryo is human, but also that (s)he is A human. And while I&#8217;ve seen some people attempt to create some sort of distinction between &#8220;human being&#8221; and &#8220;person,&#8221; I opt to lean towards science and use the terms interchangeably.</p>
<p>&#8220;The reason I can support abortion rights while being a vegan rests on the notion of sentience and the capacity to feel pain. It is why later-term abortions do trouble me more than earlier ones.&#8221;</p>
<p>Careful, speaking too much about &#8220;sentience&#8221; will turn you into Peter Singer, who, as well all know, is a lunatic who supports infanticide. If I see an ant walking across the floor, I could simply step on him/her and (s)he would die instantly, hardly suffering at all. So do I do it? Of course not, because, suffering pain or otherwise, that ant has a life that possesses value. As for our species, we are human beings long before we possess the ability to feel pain.</p>
<p>&#8220;That’s a big part of why every feminist I know — including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion — is a strong supporter of contraception.&#8221;</p>
<p>What is your definition of &#8220;support&#8221;? I don&#8217;t know anyone who is in favor of making contraceptives illegal &#8212; provided that they are true contraceptives, rather than abortafacient agents. But that doesn&#8217;t mean that everybody thinks that using artificial methods of birth control is always the best course of action, or that the &#8220;contraceptive mentality&#8221; that a child is equivalent to a venereal disease (to be prevented at all costs!) is at all healthy. I believe that abortion gained such a foothold (to the chagrin of both pro-lifers and some pro-choicers) because this contraceptive mentality was already so popular. Mind you, this is not to condemn everyone who uses contraceptives, but those who eschew them aren&#8217;t backward-thinking, either.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-243670</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-243670</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision&lt;/I&gt;

Yet you paint it as an "easy" choice anyway, and pretend that the choice pushed on women is abortion, not adoption, as if women aren't told "you can just give it up for adoption"? And bringing up your friends with fertility issues doesn't really make it sound as though you are all that concerned about the woman facing the choice. She's not merely a brood mare for couples who can't have babies, you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision</i></p>
<p>Yet you paint it as an &#8220;easy&#8221; choice anyway, and pretend that the choice pushed on women is abortion, not adoption, as if women aren&#8217;t told &#8220;you can just give it up for adoption&#8221;? And bringing up your friends with fertility issues doesn&#8217;t really make it sound as though you are all that concerned about the woman facing the choice. She&#8217;s not merely a brood mare for couples who can&#8217;t have babies, you know.</p>
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		<title>By: Antigone</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242969</link>
		<dc:creator>Antigone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 02:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242969</guid>
		<description>I really, really want to find out where people seem to think that "pro-choice" means "abortion is happy and fun".  Nobody on the pro-choice side wants a lot of abortions, but they don't want them because they don't want "unwanted pregnancy".  Abortion isn't a great option, but then again, neither is open-heart surgery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really, really want to find out where people seem to think that &#8220;pro-choice&#8221; means &#8220;abortion is happy and fun&#8221;.  Nobody on the pro-choice side wants a lot of abortions, but they don&#8217;t want them because they don&#8217;t want &#8220;unwanted pregnancy&#8221;.  Abortion isn&#8217;t a great option, but then again, neither is open-heart surgery.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumena</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242908</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242908</guid>
		<description>Chad, a point that I feel is important, but is small in the particular context of your last comment:  You don't like the `extreme' of the pro-choice that thinks that `the best birth control is simply abort the baby'.  I don't know (personally) any feminist that think this, and I can't think of a feminist in the public square that has said something to this effect.  Every feminist I know realises that abortion is painful, inconvenient, and often traumatic.  That's a big part of why every feminist I know -- including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion -- is a strong supporter of contraception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad, a point that I feel is important, but is small in the particular context of your last comment:  You don&#8217;t like the `extreme&#8217; of the pro-choice that thinks that `the best birth control is simply abort the baby&#8217;.  I don&#8217;t know (personally) any feminist that think this, and I can&#8217;t think of a feminist in the public square that has said something to this effect.  Every feminist I know realises that abortion is painful, inconvenient, and often traumatic.  That&#8217;s a big part of why every feminist I know &#8212; including several devout Catholics, and even one who is opposed to abortion &#8212; is a strong supporter of contraception.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242699</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242699</guid>
		<description>I guess my biggest thing is I am deeply afraid of the extremes of anything like this (like extreme left and right in politics too).  The pro-lifers I cannot really relate to, even though I feel personally that it is the only viable choice, because they are so fanatical about "no abortion, no how, no way" regardless of the cost to the mother or the mother's decision to do what she wants with her body.

At the same time, the extreme of the other side almost pushes for "do what you want with no thought to the consequences...the best birth control is simply abort the baby."  I think there is a big part of personal accountability before God and ourselves that leaves out being responsible for the choices that lead to pregnancy to begin with.

I am middle of the road on the issue as a whole.  I agree that neither option is wonderful and always right in and of itself, but I guess if there is any fence-sitting involved I would fall off on the side of adoption.  Maybe it is my own experience, but I cannot say with a clear conscience that "it would be better to have a mill-stone tied about your neck and be dropped into the sea than you should harm one of these little ones" does not influence my thinking as well.

I wish there were an easy answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess my biggest thing is I am deeply afraid of the extremes of anything like this (like extreme left and right in politics too).  The pro-lifers I cannot really relate to, even though I feel personally that it is the only viable choice, because they are so fanatical about &#8220;no abortion, no how, no way&#8221; regardless of the cost to the mother or the mother&#8217;s decision to do what she wants with her body.</p>
<p>At the same time, the extreme of the other side almost pushes for &#8220;do what you want with no thought to the consequences&#8230;the best birth control is simply abort the baby.&#8221;  I think there is a big part of personal accountability before God and ourselves that leaves out being responsible for the choices that lead to pregnancy to begin with.</p>
<p>I am middle of the road on the issue as a whole.  I agree that neither option is wonderful and always right in and of itself, but I guess if there is any fence-sitting involved I would fall off on the side of adoption.  Maybe it is my own experience, but I cannot say with a clear conscience that &#8220;it would be better to have a mill-stone tied about your neck and be dropped into the sea than you should harm one of these little ones&#8221; does not influence my thinking as well.</p>
<p>I wish there were an easy answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Mermade</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242635</link>
		<dc:creator>Mermade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242635</guid>
		<description>I agree with you, Chad. At the moment, I am not sure what to call myself. I am not ready - and perhaps never will be ready - to call myself pro-choice. I personally could never get an abortion, nor could I support someone financially who wanted one. Of course, I disagree with the pro-life crowd on a lot of issues related to abortion as well, but that's another topic entirely.

I hear there's a new movie out about abortion. It's in independent theaters. I am not sure what the title is, but I hear that it's pro-life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you, Chad. At the moment, I am not sure what to call myself. I am not ready - and perhaps never will be ready - to call myself pro-choice. I personally could never get an abortion, nor could I support someone financially who wanted one. Of course, I disagree with the pro-life crowd on a lot of issues related to abortion as well, but that&#8217;s another topic entirely.</p>
<p>I hear there&#8217;s a new movie out about abortion. It&#8217;s in independent theaters. I am not sure what the title is, but I hear that it&#8217;s pro-life.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242521</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242521</guid>
		<description>That said, I can appreciate your stance with the girl you talk about in this entry.  Walking through the myriad possibilities and repercussions was the right thing to do.  

I just think that often abortion is the "easy" way out (understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision - I have been on the "counseling" side of this as well with a teenager who entrusted me to help her through it...and in the end she also opted for abortion) but all too often the push from society and worry about parent's reactions and so on push one to simply terminate and then sweep it under the rug (that was this girl's thought processes in the end).  

I would argue that carrying the baby to full term and then giving it up is far harder than deciding for the abortion.  I would also argue that in the end the abortion is far more damaging to the soul, at least in the vast majority of cases.

Believe it or not, I do consider myself pro-choice...I believe God gifted us with freedom of choice and that we have to have those choices available to us to fully realize the blessings that come from those choices.  I just happen to believe that in the majority of cases, abortion is the wrong choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That said, I can appreciate your stance with the girl you talk about in this entry.  Walking through the myriad possibilities and repercussions was the right thing to do.  </p>
<p>I just think that often abortion is the &#8220;easy&#8221; way out (understanding fully that it is far from an easy decision - I have been on the &#8220;counseling&#8221; side of this as well with a teenager who entrusted me to help her through it&#8230;and in the end she also opted for abortion) but all too often the push from society and worry about parent&#8217;s reactions and so on push one to simply terminate and then sweep it under the rug (that was this girl&#8217;s thought processes in the end).  </p>
<p>I would argue that carrying the baby to full term and then giving it up is far harder than deciding for the abortion.  I would also argue that in the end the abortion is far more damaging to the soul, at least in the vast majority of cases.</p>
<p>Believe it or not, I do consider myself pro-choice&#8230;I believe God gifted us with freedom of choice and that we have to have those choices available to us to fully realize the blessings that come from those choices.  I just happen to believe that in the majority of cases, abortion is the wrong choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Noumena</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242519</link>
		<dc:creator>Noumena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242519</guid>
		<description>Chad, adoption can be just as difficult -- physically and emotionally -- as abortion.  Pregnancy and delivery put a lot of stress on a woman's body -- after a dozen pregnancies (that's not hyperbole), the devoutly Catholic grandmother of a good friend went on the pill because the last few nearly killed her, and another definitely would.  If there was a pregnancy in this or similar situations, adoption really wouldn't be an option, because the pregnancy itself really wouldn't be an option.  

Also, opponents of abortion (and some feminist critics of surrogate motherhood) sometimes argue that an emotional bond forms between a pregnant woman and the foetus she is carrying.  Assuming this bond is real, then adoption could be almost as traumatic as a stillbirth or miscarriage.  In this case, an aborting the pregnancy early on, well before such a bond can form, might be the better option.  

Of course, I don't want to argue that adoption is a bad idea.  I just want to resist the oversimplifying assumption of many opponents of abortion -- that, while abortion is a `hard choice', adoption is the `easy choice'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad, adoption can be just as difficult &#8212; physically and emotionally &#8212; as abortion.  Pregnancy and delivery put a lot of stress on a woman&#8217;s body &#8212; after a dozen pregnancies (that&#8217;s not hyperbole), the devoutly Catholic grandmother of a good friend went on the pill because the last few nearly killed her, and another definitely would.  If there was a pregnancy in this or similar situations, adoption really wouldn&#8217;t be an option, because the pregnancy itself really wouldn&#8217;t be an option.  </p>
<p>Also, opponents of abortion (and some feminist critics of surrogate motherhood) sometimes argue that an emotional bond forms between a pregnant woman and the foetus she is carrying.  Assuming this bond is real, then adoption could be almost as traumatic as a stillbirth or miscarriage.  In this case, an aborting the pregnancy early on, well before such a bond can form, might be the better option.  </p>
<p>Of course, I don&#8217;t want to argue that adoption is a bad idea.  I just want to resist the oversimplifying assumption of many opponents of abortion &#8212; that, while abortion is a `hard choice&#8217;, adoption is the `easy choice&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242502</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242502</guid>
		<description>Chad, my first instinct in that painful strange spring of 1985, when I was about to turn eighteen and my girlfriend was a year younger, was to ask her to put the child up for adoption.  But it was not my choice to make, and ought not to have been; my body would never swell, I would never be the subject of nasty gossip, and so forth.

Adoption is &lt;em&gt;one&lt;/em&gt; choice, and a fine choice, but one that comes with far greater costs than the deeply affecting (but decidedly rose-colored) vision painted in "Juno."  I honor those who freely give of themselves in this way, but there's a colossal distinction between honoring it as one option among many and privileging it as the "best" one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad, my first instinct in that painful strange spring of 1985, when I was about to turn eighteen and my girlfriend was a year younger, was to ask her to put the child up for adoption.  But it was not my choice to make, and ought not to have been; my body would never swell, I would never be the subject of nasty gossip, and so forth.</p>
<p>Adoption is <em>one</em> choice, and a fine choice, but one that comes with far greater costs than the deeply affecting (but decidedly rose-colored) vision painted in &#8220;Juno.&#8221;  I honor those who freely give of themselves in this way, but there&#8217;s a colossal distinction between honoring it as one option among many and privileging it as the &#8220;best&#8221; one.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242498</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/02/26/grieving-the-best-choice/#comment-242498</guid>
		<description>You would not necessarily have a 22-year-old in your life Hugo.  I was adopted and thank God every day that my parents did not opt for abortion.  

I also have friends right now (2 couples) who are patiently waiting to adopt.  They cannot conceive (both medically necessary hysterectomies (sp)) and desperately want a child.  The wait has been pretty long.

Why is this choice coveniently left out of so many of these conversations regarding being pro-choice?

This is what made Juno such a great flick.  The "other" choice was actually in the spotlight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would not necessarily have a 22-year-old in your life Hugo.  I was adopted and thank God every day that my parents did not opt for abortion.  </p>
<p>I also have friends right now (2 couples) who are patiently waiting to adopt.  They cannot conceive (both medically necessary hysterectomies (sp)) and desperately want a child.  The wait has been pretty long.</p>
<p>Why is this choice coveniently left out of so many of these conversations regarding being pro-choice?</p>
<p>This is what made Juno such a great flick.  The &#8220;other&#8221; choice was actually in the spotlight.</p>
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