Oral sex and facials really aren’t that close to the same thing. Oral sex is, a) very frequently reciprocal, and b) usually a situation where you have great control. Facials, I can’t imagine having as much control. So, there are plenty of reasons a woman might be quite happy to do one but not the other. Everything from details like wanting to protect your eyes to getting more out of doing things actively that turn another person on than out of passively submitting, to associating the one and not the other with degradation (like the difference between kissing and being spit on - there are other things that drive degradation/humiliation associations besides the whole “genitals are dirty” thing). They aren’t really one combined degradation/humiliation.

Having never had any form of sex I can only write in a somewhat ‘detached/objective way’, I can’t know what pleasure etc a woman might get from oral sex or a facial: I think about both in a way a young girl might think about both. I think it’s important first understand oral sex etc from how a child might see it, and then see if, and how, it could be justified as good and non-degrading.

A girl who learnt about ‘normal’ VIP sex would probably first react with thinking it an equally gross thing do for the man and for the woman. But a girl learning about oral sex, or a facial, would (I think) see it as extra-gross for the woman, as something extra-dirty for the woman to do(penis/vagina=unclean/for urinating. Mouth=for clean food, not for anything unclean). So from a girl’s perspective a facial, or oral sex, would be worse and more gross/degrading/humiliating for the woman than for the man (but VIP sex would be equally bad for both).

Why do we see more female nudity than male nudity in films? One reason — not necessarily the chief one — is that the male genitals are often more visible than are female ones; if a naked man and a naked woman stand, facing the camera, you will almost definitely see his, while hers may be obscured. So, perhaps, the sense is that “you won’t see as much” with a fully nude woman than you will with a fully nude man.

Of course, this is just one reason; another is that most writers and directors are male. And the male body — not just the genitals — is often seen as gross, no matter how muscular or fit it may be. This is hurtful to both genders, of course: women, I’m sure, become frustrated at seeing a naked woman in a scene when a man (or many men) are fully clothed, whereas men wind up getting told that their bodies are ugly, and therefore that male nudity only “works” within the confines of comedy — think of Will Ferrell, for example.

“Most little boys don’t see their testicles and their penises as entirely separate entities. By the time a boy is six or seven, he’s surely felt the sickening pain of being kicked or hit in the former…”

Good grief, Hugo! I certainly hope this isn’t true.

GT: “I was never told as a boy or young man that there was anything dirty about my genitalia. Because of that, in part, I always felt comfortable being seen naked…”

One need not consider his/her genitals to be “dirty” to wish not to be seen naked Some people are just naturally modest, and modesty isn’t the same thing as shame.

I’m going to make this my last comment simply because I’m thinking the two opinions never shall meet:)

1. ejaculating on the body is not the same in my opinion as ejaculating on the face. While in Western cultural touching someone on their shoulder, arm, hand, back is not for most people an act of intimacy touching someone on the face is. I don’t go up and touch my workmate’s cheek because it’s too intimate. Conversely if I wanted to cause my workmate to lose face because they had done something offensive I might throw a drink in their face or slap them or point to them in their face and tell them how I pissed them off. All the ‘offensive actions’ involve an element of surprise designed to catch the recipient offguard and often cause them to lose their composure, even if just momentarily. Facials involve a similar element - so despite the potential for intimacy given cultural norms around the ‘face’ I think this is where the dominant/submissive dynamic is inerasable. I don’t believe we can leave our culture at the bedroom door - sex is invested with cultural beliefs surrounding lust, love etc. Ideas about what is sexy are informed by cultural norms, the appeal of breaking taboos etc. To say that this act doesn’t have to have any connection to culture would logically have to make all sex culture-less, make it all just a matter of physiological sexual response when the range of sexual behaviours in society clearly show this is not the case.

2. This leads me to my second point that sex is (obviously I know) both psychological and physiological. There’s no physiological sexual reason to get off on having someone cum on your face (and there’s a learnt cultural reason in Western society to find it at least mildly offputting) but there are psychological ones related to renacting adominance/submissive dynamic, or seeing this as expected sexual behaviour thanks to porn, a selfless act of love for a partner and I’m sure a host of other reasons I haven’t thought of. So I don’t buy the whole ‘just enjoyment’ factor - there’s more to it than that.

I am guessing the sticking point might be my use of ‘inherently’ but I don’t believe an action has any meaning outside of our culture/society and we can never truly leave our culture/society. So in Western culture I think facials are inherently degrading - their whole evolution and performance mimics other non-sexual actions performed that are designed to make the receiver ‘lose face’ and the giver feel that they have gained power.

“I was not arguing it couldn’t be mutually pleasurable (although I indicated it wouldn’t be for me) but whether it was a degrading act…The question is why is an act remniscent of other cultural acts of contempt pleasurable (either to give or receive) for some men and women?”

Understood. And I was stating that if I know for a fact that the act is not inherently degrading due to the fact that I have engaged in the act in question without being or feeling the slightest bit degraded. The act in and of itself is not inherently degrading. As far as your question, cumming on a woman’s face is only an act of contempt if the man intends it to be an act of contempt and/or is doing it without consent (or any real desire) from the woman in question. I honestly believe that you are seeing contempt where contempt may or may not be there. Facials can in fact be a quite intimate experience. As I said before, stating that it is inherently degrading is absolutely problematic.

“Just as we are talking about how men work through issues of feeling dirty by performing a facial, women could be be working through other sets of issues by receiving facials.”

Under certain circumstances, such as past abuse, sure. Or they could just enjoy having a man cum on their face.

“I can’t help but think that, even if a notion of ‘radical validation’ informs the facial, its performance reinforces a dominant/submissive dynamic. As others have said, we shouldn’t assume that men (or women in a parallel situtaion) therefore get sexual carte blanche to work through their issues without considering whether their chosen means to do so is simply transferring their issues onto their partner’s body.”

I absolutely believe that facials can be an act of domination. But, to be quite frank, I just don’t understand why it’s so hard to accept that it’s really any different from a man ejaculating on any other part of a woman’s body if his -intent- is simply to ejaculate on her face because the woman enjoys it and he enjoys it. It’s only a culturally loaded act as you stated if you - or the people engaging in it - turn it into a culturally loaded act. Otherwise, it’s just a man ejaculating on a woman’s face.

“As others have said, we shouldn’t assume that men (or women in a parallel situtaion) therefore get sexual carte blanche to work through their issues without considering whether their chosen means to do so is simply transferring their issues onto their partner’s body.”

Agreed.

“1. Do whatever turns you (and your partner) on in your own bed. You like facials? You think it’s totally ok with somebody you love? I would not and have never, but hey, enjoy and God bless!”

I actually believe it’s perfectly acceptable to engage in facials even without someone that an individual woman loves if that is her preference. But thank you for validating my and other women’s right to have a man cum on our face should we enjoy the act under circumstances that we enjoy and do not feel as if we are being degraded.

“2. Facials are MEANT to be degrading in porn. That’s the turn on, and unfortunately, some men take performance-based, paid sex and copy it in real life, for their own satisfaction, regardless of how their partner feels. Those guys are douchebags, not hurt little puppies who need understanding.”

Agreed. Completely totally 100%.

“Inner Pain (which we all have), is no excuse for being a giant asshole. Your partner’s body is not your canvas on which to project your issues.”

I didn’t read Hugo’s post as attempting to excuse men for “being a giant asshole”. I actually read his post as being exactly the opposite. I read it as him attempting to give an explanation for why some men might enjoy facials and blowjobs without having any desire to degrade the woman they are having sex with.

I’m not sure that I think it is problematic to argue that it is an act based on degradation. What would be problematic would be to say that therefore I somehow want to enforce some kind of ban on people performing facials in their private sex lives:) Just as we are talking about how men work through issues of feeling dirty by performing a facial, women could be be working through other sets of issues by receiving facials. The motivations behind sex are never simple and I really resist the tendency to shut down analysis of sexual behaviours based on notions of ’sexual freedom’. It leads to a stalemate where you can’t discuss anything because someone, somewhere will say ‘but I loooove that’ and then we all have to shut up in case we offend them. I find it much more interesting to accept as a given that some people will like sexual practices that can seem problematic and remaining aware of that when talking about the cultural meaning of sexual acts.

“If a man cums on my face because I enjoy it, and he enjoys it, it is a mutually pleasurable act”

I was not arguing it couldn’t be mutually pleasurable (although I indicated it wouldn’t be for me) but whether it was a degrading act. The actor in question doesn’t have to be consciously feeling contempt because in our culture throwing something in someone’s face is widely understood as an act of contempt. The action itself has a cultural loading. The question is why is an act remniscent of other cultural acts of contempt pleasurable (either to give or receive) for some men and women?

I can’t help but think that, even if a notion of ‘radical validation’ informs the facial, its performance reinforces a dominant/submissive dynamic. As others have said, we shouldn’t assume that men (or women in a parallel situtaion) therefore get sexual carte blanche to work through their issues without considering whether their chosen means to do so is simply transferring their issues onto their partner’s body.