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	<title>Comments on: Abortion, Media, Sex Work and Pink Polo Shirts: WAM Day Two, final take</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-288759</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 12:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-288759</guid>
		<description>Eh, I don't know mythago.  I think what you say makes sense (we might feel more sympathy/empathy with sex workers, though we think what they're doing is wrong, than the johns) but it's also possible to think that one can only say whether something is wrong in context.  

So you could believe that stealing in general is wrong but also believe that stealing to feed ones family is not wrong.  Similarly, selling sex might be wrong, but selling sex to feed ones family might not be wrong.  Buying sex, on the other hand, would always be wrong, because you could always just give the starving person money rather than pay him/her for sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh, I don&#8217;t know mythago.  I think what you say makes sense (we might feel more sympathy/empathy with sex workers, though we think what they&#8217;re doing is wrong, than the johns) but it&#8217;s also possible to think that one can only say whether something is wrong in context.  </p>
<p>So you could believe that stealing in general is wrong but also believe that stealing to feed ones family is not wrong.  Similarly, selling sex might be wrong, but selling sex to feed ones family might not be wrong.  Buying sex, on the other hand, would always be wrong, because you could always just give the starving person money rather than pay him/her for sex.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-288003</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-288003</guid>
		<description>Lisa, that's fine as long as you're admitting you think everybody involved in the transaction is wrong. We don't praise drug dealers but sorrowfully explain that we're forced to punish those wrongdoing drug users (or vice versa).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lisa, that&#8217;s fine as long as you&#8217;re admitting you think everybody involved in the transaction is wrong. We don&#8217;t praise drug dealers but sorrowfully explain that we&#8217;re forced to punish those wrongdoing drug users (or vice versa).</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287839</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287839</guid>
		<description>I'm not sure if this is &lt;i&gt;Hugo's&lt;/i&gt; perspective, but it seems perfectly consistent and understandable to me that someone would say "I think what you are doing is (wrong/harmful to yourself), even though you think you derive a benefit from it".

By way of example, "I think your consumption of meat is wrong, even though you think it tastes better than other sources of protein" and "I think prostitution is wrong, even though you think the paychecks are worth it".  Yes, the latter is condescending, but so is the former.  Respecting our fellow human beings does not make every viewpoint equally valid; sometimes someone is actually wrong.

As Amber said, however, it &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; necessary to "listen to what the people *actually affected* want and say".  To ignore their experiences in favor of a clear-cut black-and-white answer is to do them a grievous injustice and also avoid any chance of reaching a real solution.  Once their stories are out there, it may become possible to talk meaningfully about ways to reduce prostitution while helping the women who were, or who would have become, sex workers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if this is <i>Hugo&#8217;s</i> perspective, but it seems perfectly consistent and understandable to me that someone would say &#8220;I think what you are doing is (wrong/harmful to yourself), even though you think you derive a benefit from it&#8221;.</p>
<p>By way of example, &#8220;I think your consumption of meat is wrong, even though you think it tastes better than other sources of protein&#8221; and &#8220;I think prostitution is wrong, even though you think the paychecks are worth it&#8221;.  Yes, the latter is condescending, but so is the former.  Respecting our fellow human beings does not make every viewpoint equally valid; sometimes someone is actually wrong.</p>
<p>As Amber said, however, it <i>is</i> necessary to &#8220;listen to what the people *actually affected* want and say&#8221;.  To ignore their experiences in favor of a clear-cut black-and-white answer is to do them a grievous injustice and also avoid any chance of reaching a real solution.  Once their stories are out there, it may become possible to talk meaningfully about ways to reduce prostitution while helping the women who were, or who would have become, sex workers.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287791</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 07:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287791</guid>
		<description>(Livy, I gotcha.)

Amanda - prostitutes have long been described as disease-ridden, pestilential, and similar terms. Using a "disease" analogy may not be an intentional dogwhistle on Hugo's part, but FFS, he knows better. And while I'm in agreement that sexual exploitation of women is bad, "love the hooker, hate the trick" is not much more than wanting to drive prostitutes out of business with the very lovingest of intentions. It's not like these women are selling sex because they got tired of their six-figure investment banking jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Livy, I gotcha.)</p>
<p>Amanda - prostitutes have long been described as disease-ridden, pestilential, and similar terms. Using a &#8220;disease&#8221; analogy may not be an intentional dogwhistle on Hugo&#8217;s part, but FFS, he knows better. And while I&#8217;m in agreement that sexual exploitation of women is bad, &#8220;love the hooker, hate the trick&#8221; is not much more than wanting to drive prostitutes out of business with the very lovingest of intentions. It&#8217;s not like these women are selling sex because they got tired of their six-figure investment banking jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: Djiril</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287711</link>
		<dc:creator>Djiril</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287711</guid>
		<description>Aaaand my last post was also useless because the link was wrong.  Maybe this one will work:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&#38;friendID=341657267&#38;blogID=372072580

Basically:
*Skeptical of benefits of Swedish model as law, especially after reading article linked.
*Find arguments from sex workers' rights activists more convincing than ones from abolitionists.
*Hope to see more and better dialogue between disagreeing sides of debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaaand my last post was also useless because the link was wrong.  Maybe this one will work:<br />
<a href="http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendID=341657267&amp;blogID=372072580" rel="nofollow">http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&amp;friendID=341657267&amp;blogID=372072580</a></p>
<p>Basically:<br />
*Skeptical of benefits of Swedish model as law, especially after reading article linked.<br />
*Find arguments from sex workers&#8217; rights activists more convincing than ones from abolitionists.<br />
*Hope to see more and better dialogue between disagreeing sides of debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor Science</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287551</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287551</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;She estimates, based on her years in journalism, that a typical female reporter pitches one story to an editor for every FIVE that a male colleague will pitch.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Does pitching more stories actually help, or does it just get a female reporter labelled a "bitch"? Basically, is it due to female reporters' fear of the double standard, or is it an accurate judgement on their part about what will happen to them if they're more assertive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>She estimates, based on her years in journalism, that a typical female reporter pitches one story to an editor for every FIVE that a male colleague will pitch.</p></blockquote>
<p>Does pitching more stories actually help, or does it just get a female reporter labelled a &#8220;bitch&#8221;? Basically, is it due to female reporters&#8217; fear of the double standard, or is it an accurate judgement on their part about what will happen to them if they&#8217;re more assertive?</p>
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		<title>By: Livy</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287500</link>
		<dc:creator>Livy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287500</guid>
		<description>mythago - I didn't say that I agreed with Hugo, I just explained his analogy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mythago - I didn&#8217;t say that I agreed with Hugo, I just explained his analogy.</p>
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		<title>By: Pandagon :: Panels, man, panels :: March :: 2008</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287414</link>
		<dc:creator>Pandagon :: Panels, man, panels :: March :: 2008</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287414</guid>
		<description>[...] on it, and people standing in the back. There&#8217;s a couple of liveblogs of the panel here and here. Cristina and Aimee were both a bit surprised&#8212;usually the issue of reproductive justice is not [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] on it, and people standing in the back. There&#8217;s a couple of liveblogs of the panel here and here. Cristina and Aimee were both a bit surprised&#8212;usually the issue of reproductive justice is not [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda Marcotte</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287348</link>
		<dc:creator>Amanda Marcotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 12:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287348</guid>
		<description>Men's desire to control and own women, especially sexually, is the disease in question, it seems to me.  Not prostitution per se, which is a symptom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Men&#8217;s desire to control and own women, especially sexually, is the disease in question, it seems to me.  Not prostitution per se, which is a symptom.</p>
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		<title>By: Djiril</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287005</link>
		<dc:creator>Djiril</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 02:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/03/29/wam-day-two-updates-ongoing/#comment-287005</guid>
		<description>Well, it had a lot of addresses in it, so maybe it got deleted as spam.  I reposted it on my blog, so maybe this will work:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&#38;pop=1&#38;indicate=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it had a lot of addresses in it, so maybe it got deleted as spam.  I reposted it on my blog, so maybe this will work:<br />
<a href="http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&amp;pop=1&amp;indicate=1" rel="nofollow">http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&amp;pop=1&amp;indicate=1</a></p>
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