A reader named Gwynn writes:
I’ve been thinking about you recently as my boyfriend and I have been talking about feminism.
He’s 25, I’m 34, but this is not about our age difference per se. A bit before we started dating, I told him I was a feminist, and he took the kind of not-uncommon position something like “well as long as you’re not mad at me personally…” But when we spoke further, I found him very receptive to feminist ideas. He was simply clueless, which isn’t uncommon in either sex, I suppose.
I gave him a bunch of links to read (from this blog and elsewhere).
So everything was great and I’ve been calling him a feminist. But lately he’s admitted he’s not comfortable calling himself a feminist because of his lack of actual education about it, and because he’s afraid someone like his sister or mom will argue with him if he uses that title. And also, feminist stuff is starting to seriously stress him out and sometimes when it comes up, it makes him really miserable, partly from a generic perspective (”the world is really fucked up!”) and partly selfishly.
The way I can approach sympathy for his position is as a white person. Racism is an issue where I’m in the oppressive majority, so I can understand the discomfort that comes with that position. Otherwise I’d probably get truly irritated when he says things like “I just don’t like having so much anger directed at me that I don’t deserve,” etc. I talk him through this stuff as best I’m able.
He’s also freaked out around ideas like “what can I personally do about misogyny?” and “seriously, I can never use the word ‘bitch’ again?” and “do men really have a vested interest in keeping women down?” and “but how does patriarchy benefit me personally?”
I’m not a gatekeeper of feminism. I’m a student of it, like most people. I don’t want to be his feminist authority.
I’m pretty good at answering the questions and challenging him. We had, for instance, a whole discussion in which I convinced him that the position that all heterosexual sex is rape is, while (IMO) wrong, not actually ridiculous. He’s open to everything that I say. He agrees that gender stuff is fucked up. (Of course, he’s especially receptive to arguments about how patriarchy hurts men, but I’m fine with that. I hate how patriarchy hurts men too, and as long as you’re not using that as a way of saying “so shut up, bitches, at least you don’t have to do dangerous jobs”, I’m totally cool with discussing it.)
I wish he had a male feminist mentor of some kind, but I don’t see that happening. I wish he was more well read about it, but he’s been reading “The Republic” for about the past year, which indicates how much time he spends with books and how slow he is at it.
I guess my sort of general question is, without doing all of his work for him, or letting him off the hook, how does a girlfriend help a boyfriend with feminism?
One of the problems in any age-disparate relationship — particularly when the older partner is committed to a spiritual or political ideal about which the younger knows little — is that a kind of complicated mentoring relationship can develop. The younger partner, so often infatuated with the older, can easily associate their new love’s beliefs with the new love himself or herself. In other words, the interest in feminism could (and in Gwynn’s boyfriend’s case, I don’t know for sure) become inextricably linked with Gwynn, and his receptivity to feminism thus rises and falls with the status of the relationhip. That’s always problematic.
But there are two basic issues here: how to get young men to understand — and embrace — feminism, and how can a romantic partner help in that process, if at all?
Whether we’re talking about sons, boyfriends, brothers or friends, the best way to introduce men to feminism is to give them access to some basic feminist primers. A great place to start that wasn’t mentioned in Gwynn’s letter: Finally, a Feminism 101 Blog. It’s the best “starting point” on the web; just the FAQs section alone is wonderfully educational for the newbie. It’s non-threatening, but it also doesn’t dumb down feminist thinking. If Gwynn’s boyfriend isn’t ready to call himself a feminist because he doesn’t “know enough” yet, FF101 is an excellent site for him to use to help him make that decision.
For young men who are interested in gender justice, there are many fine examples on the ‘net and elsewhere of men “doing feminism”. Some good blogs (with their own blogrolls that go many fine places) include Feminist Allies, No Cookies for Me, and Diary of a Black Male Feminist. There’s the wonderful new Shira Tarrant anthology, Men Speak Out, which I’ve reviewed here. There’s XY Online, run by the splendid Michael Flood. The links alone could keep you busy for a year.
But Gwynn is asking for more than links and references. The larger question is a tougher one: how does a woman who is a feminist inspire or guide or challenge a male partner to accept feminism?
The dynamics of sexual and romantic relationship often make this task particularly challenging. A man falling in love with a feminist woman might be initially very receptive to feminism, because he’s receptive to everything and anything about his new lover. If she likes cheese, he likes cheese; if she’s a feminist, he’s going to be open to it as well. The problem is obvious: when we’re smitten with someone and become smitten with their passions as well, our newfound ideological commitments become inextricably bound up with the relationship itself. And whenever the relationship wanes or ends, the newfound interest in cheese or comic books or feminism vanishes along with it.
The most important thing a feminist woman can say to a man she’s dating who, like Gwynn’s boyfriend, isn’t sure about this whole “feminist thing” is: “Don’t become a feminist to make me happy. Don’t just see feminism as a way of treating me as an equal. Feminism is about me, and it’s about us, but it’s also about the way you interact with every other woman and man in the world.”
I’m convinced that the best test of a man’s feminism is not how he treats the women he already respects and loves: his girlfriend or wife, his sister, his mom. It’s about how he treats the women he doesn’t know, or has been trained not to respect: Hillary Clinton, sex workers, migrant laborers. His feminism, if it’s more than skin deep, will also impact how he interacts with men. I’ve always insisted that the “acid test” for male feminists is whether they live out their feminism when they are alone with other men, with no women around.
So how do you “get” a man to go to that place? The simplest answer is also the hardest one: insist on it. That doesn’t mean insisting that he subscribe to Bitch Magazine and learn to talk knowingly about continental feminist theory. What Gwynn — and any feminist woman dating an as-of-yet-not-feminist man — can do is make clear that behavior matters more than intellectual assent. What boyfriend reads may or may not help him, but how he speaks and how he acts matters. That doesn’t mean just “treating women with respect”; after all, even conservative anti-feminists make a great deal of noise about respect. It means negotiating an egalitarian life together, and it means a willingness to, at the least, support his feminist girlfriend’s commitments without mockery or indifference.
Insecure young men in American society live in fear of being labelled as “whipped”. To be “whipped”, in the eyes of other men, is to have noticeably altered one’s behavior as a result of being in a relationship with a woman. Those men who are still stuck in a prolonged adolescence often worry a great deal about “losing their identity” in marriage and relationship; they fear a kind of psychic neutering will occur if they give too much ground and make too many compromises. Their fear, of course, is usually less about actually changing and more about the kinds of disparaging reactions they’ll get from other men. An insecure young man might worry that if he “comes out” as a feminist, especially as a result of being in a relationship with a feminist woman, he’ll be greeted with howls of derision from male buddies and eye-rolling skepticism from other women in his life.
But one of the reasons we are called to be in relationships is so that we can grow and change and leave behind “childish things.” There is nothing more childish than the anxiety that others — a brother, sister, mother or buddy — will suggest that you’ve had your “balls cut off.” Adult men, as opposed to teenage boys, need to be past that homosocial fear.
Sometimes, only those who “know” us in the biblical sense also know us well enough to help us transform and grow. This doesn’t mean it’s uniquely women’s task to change men; it means that enduring commited relationships have, as one of their primary purposes, a crucible effect. In the crucible of a lasting relationship, a lot of our old prejudices and insecurities ought to get melted away. If we aren’t being changed, if we aren’t being forced to do some painful growth as a result of being in a relationship, it’s probably time to break up and look for someone who can and will offer a more significant challenge.
So the question for Gwynn’s boyfriend is a simple one: is he ready and able to grow and change? If he says, with the typical petulance of the puerile, “I’m fine the way I am”, then it’s time for Gwynn to move along. There’s nothing “fine” about the casual bigotry and sexism that infects so much of our modern world; overcoming it is exhausting, exciting, joyous, and overwhelmingly difficult work. If being in love with Gwynn has sparked an interest in becoming a different kind of man, one more complete in his humanness, then their relationship is doing its work.
Healing the world is vital work. If we spend a sizeable amount of energy on getting a stubborn partner to share our view of the world, we waste precious resources that might better be put to use elsewhere. With that in mind, the best answer I can give to Gwynn’s question: “how does a girlfriend help a boyfriend with feminism” is a simple one. She helps by pointing him towards the right resources, and then behaving towards him as if he already has become a feminist. Assume he is one; treat him as if he already “gets it”. And when and if he lapses back into anti-feminist behavior, make it clear that part of being in a relationship with a feminist is being one too.
Hmm, personally, I wouldn’t recommend the Finally Feminism 101 blog for men who are interested in “gender justice”, as I don’t think it’s “non-threatening”. Feminism online is a tough environment to learn, there’s a lot of hostility. Among feminists, certainly towards men. Particularly those who haven’t yet had training in feminist-acceptable syntax.
I would, more importantly, also be honest and mention that feminism, for all its merits, has a couple of strands that have not much in common with the idea of “gender justice”. “Feminism” and what I tend to call “pop-feminism” are two philosophically different animals. The former is usually academic, the latter usually not. The latter could probably be indeed called a gender justice movement, the former not.
Most importantly: Find a new name. As a man, I am pro-pop-feminist (I have too many exceptions with academic feminism’s epistemology), but I will never be a feminist. A movement trying to achieve gender justice should not carry one gender’s name in it. It’s a deal breaker.
I dunno, I have a lack of sympathy for the same reasons Gwynn has sympathy - as a white person, it’s selfish and wrong of me to whine that black people are hurting my feelings or that Latinos are mad at me personally or whatever. If her boyfriend cared, he’d be learning already instead of making her be his educator.
Mythago, that’s interesting (about sympathy), but I guess I’m not such a bad-ass. I understand how racial justice can bring up inappropriate feelings in me (specifically, feelings that seek to make racism about me and my experiences), and that allows me to understand my boyfriend better, rather than just being angry. I don’t find anger toward a loved one that useful.
He’s not “making” me be his educator, though this is a trap I do want to avoid.
Thanks for this, Hugo, though I’m not sure it’s that helpful. We talked about a lot of this at WAM this year. I totally get Gwynn’s struggle; as I’ve said, my “boyfriance” Steven is actually very feminist in his personal interactions, both with me and with other women, but his public face is actually anti-feminist. Bashing Hillary Clinton, laughing at inappropriate misogynist jokes, etc. I see the contradiction, and from what I can tell the key is to point it out and say, “Which one is really you? Why don’t you act that way all the time?” Everyone acts differently in different circumstances, mostly because of social pressure. We are all challenged with being able to be able to identify and be true to our selves, rather than go with the flow.
Mythago, I def. sympathize with your position, but is it a strict “Either you care or you don’t” type of thing? As a white person who it took several “smacks in the face”, so to speak (of incidents and examples of racism), to wake up to the realities of race and class, I can understand how difficult it is, particularly for those in positions of privilege and power, to deliberately set those assumptions aside in order to learn and understand those who the system is stacked against. You say, “If her boyfriend cared, he’d be learning already instead of making her be his educator”, but if she cares about HIM and feminism, wouldn’t it make sense for her to help him in his understanding, as long as she’s not doing all the work for him? Where is the line between guiding him by the hand and doing all the emotional work, and genuinely helping him come to his own understanding and “doing” of feminism?
I struggle with this in my relationship too, and there aren’t any easy answers I know of.
Mythago -
Really? How can you be wrong about *feeling* hurt? Accepting that feeling as real seems to be the starting point for a real discussion…
“Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they’re told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.” (Sen. B. Obama)
Someone is thinking ahead there…
When you nurture that feeling into a sense of righteous indignation and blame whoever “made” you feel that way. I happen to agree with the Obama quote. I don’t agree that the solution is to pat white people on the head and say there there.
Sure, but I have no indication that my boyfriend is doing anything like this.
We had a conversation in a restaurant once, about rape. He got extremely distraught. I think the combination of the horrible things that happen in the world with the realization that just not committing rape is probably not enough with the fear that all men are viewed as rapists…just freaked him out. Am I supposed to have zero sympathy just because he’s a member of the oppressor class, or what?
I was around his age when I started to become comfortable calling myself a feminist, so I can’t actually criticize him for that either.
Hugo:
A man falling in love with a feminist woman might be initially very receptive to feminism… whenever the relationship wanes or ends, the newfound interest in … feminism vanishes along with it.
As a male feminist, this has not been my own experience. My feminist awakening was largely due to older women I dated who were staunch feminists and who convinced me that their position was the right one. This may have something to do with the respect I continued to feel for them, intellectually, after the relationships ended. Still, I don’t think it’s fair to assume that a young man or woman’s principles will disappear as soon as the lover/mentor who first instilled them is no longer on the scene. I know lots of young straight women, and gay men and women, who have had experiences much like mine, being turned on to some truth or idea by an older lover and holding on to those ideas after the relationship is over.
That being said, of course I’ve also known people who adopted an older lover’s principles as part of the identity-experimentation that is so central to dating for young people, and who discarded the principles afterwards with the rest of the rejected identity. But I think it would be a mistake to dismiss the potential for permanent changes in a person’s worldview as a result of the principles of their past romantic partners.
By the same token, you seem a little too dismissive of the value of planting the seeds of feminism in a man’s relationships with those women closest to him: his wife, daughter, etc. Confucius makes a strong case in the Analects that the teaching of virtue has to proceed by stages; first a person should learn gratitude for the people closest to him and to whom he owes the greatest debts (e.g. his parents), and then it can gradually expand out to encompass all of humanity and all of life. Similarly, I’ve known many middle-aged men who became feminists only after having a daughter and seeing her perilous progress through the world. But these men’s feminism is not limited to their relatives; many of them are truly committed to universal feminist principles. This kind of broad awareness can sometimes be awakened quite quickly through the power of immediate, personally relevant examples.
Picador, I was writing on a specific issue — how a girlfriend can engender this kind of change. You’re absolutely right that many men become feminists through what happens to their wives, sisters, and daughters. I have a colleague who only became seriously concerned with women’s rights after his daughter hit a glass ceiling and concomitant sexual harassment in her first job. It’s a common story.
Gwynn,
“he’s a member of the oppressor class”
I never had a girlfriend for whom being “feminist” was personality defining. Most were modern women who were feminist in action more than in word. I started getting interested in feminism as a political theory when I was confronted with the statement that, allegedly, because of patriarchical oppression, there could be no love between men and women.
I think that was Andrea Dworkin. I’m opposed to all group rights theories, and all political theories that are based on group rights (and I am fascinated that there are so many feminists who still hold a group rights position after Judith Butler). A group rights perspective will blind you as much as you will think it will help you see structures. After all, Andrea Dworkin told you you cannot love your boyfriend because you were born on opposite ends of her gender-oppression spectrum.
But how important is it really for the two of you that your boyfriend is “part of the oppressor class”, that you believe he is part of a system designed to oppress you? That by now he may believe he’s oppressing you in some sense? I’m not sure many feminists are aware to which extent they can talk guilt into those guys who actually listen and care. There was a time when I wouldn’t touch a girl’s breasts while making out (until she asked if there was something wrong with her breasts) for fear of touching her without her consent… not saying my paranoia was feminism’s fault, but for all the good it does, “feminism” also comes with some collateral damage.
When you look at your boyfriend, do you see “the part of the oppressor class” or do you see a person?
“I’ve always insisted that the “acid test” for male feminists is whether they live out their feminism when they are alone with other men, with no women around. ”
I agree. I call it Confronting in the Absence. I use this acid test with racism also. Silence is assent and acceptance.
Sam,
I don’t normally think of my boyfriend as “a member of the oppressor class.” It should’ve been clear (I thought) from what I wrote (”Am I supposed to have zero sympathy just because he’s a member of the oppressor class, or what?”) that I wasn’t really advancing such an idea.
I definitely see a (rather wonderful) person when I look at my boyfriend. The oddest thing about this post, which I realize is taking the general case since Hugo doesn’t know me personally, is how vastly it understates the feminism and humanity of my actual boyfriend.
Again, it’s always about men having to change to please women.
And why is it “petulant” and “puerile” for a man to say he’s fine with the way he is? I call that having good self esteem — and unless somebody’s a violent criminal or sociopathic abusive monster, it’s not an innately bad thing to say. Indeed, if a woman were to declare “I’m fine with the way I am,” Hugo would be tripping over himself with praise, n’est-ce pas?
“Gwynn”
What is your motivation for turning him into a feminist? If this is a deal breaker for you, why not just seek out a male feminist to begin with?
You didn’t allude to any behavior on his part that was a problem for you, and in fact you said he’s a wonderful person and if I understand you correctly, he is feminist at heart. He is just reluctant to discuss theory and call himself a feminist. On calling himself a feminist there are two anxieties at work. As Hugo pointed out, he may worry what the guys might think. I’ll suggest that it may be possible you have a similar anxiety - what will my feminist friends think if he says he’s not a feminist and says something that has been dissected on Feminist 101?
One final guy note: I cringed when you mentioned discussing rape during a restaurant dinner. That may be pushing it just a bit :)
Sweating,
I actually discussed feminism with my boyfriend before we started dating. I found him really cool on the topic, once I told him what I was actually talking about. He is without doubt the most feminist man I’ve ever dated, and plenty feminist to satisfy me.
I’m not pushing this topic on him against his will, as best I can tell. It’s one of many things that we talk about.
Let’s forget about him being my boyfriend and a man for a minute. Becoming a feminist is often confusing and challenging in the beginning. I respect that. I continue to discuss it and work on it with him because I’m interested in his growth, and on what he can contribute.
Andrea Dworkin openly lived with a male partner for over two decades, so I’m not quite sure where you are getting that information.
Martin, it’s not about pleasing women; it’s about doing the right thing. I doubt you would say ‘it’s silly to argue people should not be anti-Semitic, why is it the job of Gentiles to please Jews?’
Gwynn,
Sounds like you have it together. Good luck to you both.
I’ll tell you what made me a feminist, or at least someone who self-identifies as one. Oddly enough, it wasn’t my loud-and-proud feminist girlfriend. It was an experience I had on an airport shuttle.
On the shuttle with me was this thirty-something whiny professional woman, two older women who didn’t speak English, and the laziest van driver I’ve ever seen in my life. The professional woman kept baiting the driver, telling him he should hurry up and do his job (of course, she was right, but she didn’t express it very kindly). At first, he ignored her. Then he told her to get in the front passenger seat next to him — and proceeded to blatantly verbally sexually harrass her for the next half hour.
Now, I had never before been in a situation where it was my sole responsibility to stop another man from sexually harrassing a woman - but that was clearly the case here. The two older women didn’t speak English and didn’t know what was going on. The woman being harrassed was doing her level best to stop him, but was clearly flustered and unsure how to handle the driver — after all, she did need him to take her to her destination. All I had to do was speak up.
And yet I did nothing. I sat silent, rooted to the spot. I had excuses, lots of them. I hadn’t slept in over 24 hours. I needed this guy to get me to my destination. But I knew it was all BS — the real reason I didn’t speak up was because somewhere, some part of me thought he was right. Thought she was out of line and had it coming to her. I recognized this thought, but could do nothing to silence it. And when the woman got out of the bus, she gave me this look that I’ll never forget — a look that said that I and the bus driver were one and the same.
It was then that I decided I had to become a feminist. And it’s been a hard road. It’s threatened my relationship at times, and made me deeply depressed at others. But it was that incident, and the deep shame I felt about my own actions, that motivated me to change.
The point of my telling this story? Maybe some men need to experience that shame before they, too, are ready to become feminists, and once they do, they can be their own engines of change.
Hugo, thanks for a great post.
Again, it’s always about men having to change to please women.
Hugo has stated many times that feminism is about men helping themselves as well, because the standards that patriachy sets up for men can be just as damaging and restrictive as the standards it sets up for women. Since you say “again” it appears you’ve visited this blog before, but if you haven’t, you ought to check his archives.
Indeed, if a woman were to declare “I’m fine with the way I am,” Hugo would be tripping over himself with praise, n’est-ce pas?
Again, from what Hugo’s written over the years, he seems to be a big champion of self-growth, regardless of gender.
Jeremy, wow. And I think I agree. My own boyfriend is relatively amenable to the parts of feminism that go along with being socially liberal, but sometimes when I talk about things that have happened to me, I know he doesn’t understand at all. He doesn’t understand how threatening it is to get propositioned or leered at on the street, so he can’t understand that it’s a huge problem. It’s stuff like that, that he hasn’t seen firsthand, that I have a hard time trying to explain, and to explain why it makes me so angry or uncomfortable or hurt.
Unfortunately, I think for most people, they have to see certain things to believe them.
Very insightful post.
I think in part somebody can only grow (I won’t call it change) if they want to.
Martin, there are different kinds of change. It’s wrong to demand your partner dress a certain way, or insist they follow your whims. It’s not wrong to expect that a partner should want to make a relationship work, and learn to treat you better.
You’re also forgetting that women get pressure to ‘change’ all the time form men and other women. Too demanding (for asking him to pitch in a fraction of the work)? Change for him, he hates nagging. Look average? Change. He deserves a hot wife. Not happy in bed? Change for him.
There are parts of ourslelves that we cannot change, but are neutral. There are parts of us that aren’t very nice to our partners, and especially in men, there are parts that are socialised to not treat women well (not helping with kids or dishes, not caring about her satisfaction in bed) which CAN be changed, and if you’re a decent person, you want to be a better partner, just like society encourages people to want to be a better parent.
If a partner does not want to change habits and things that harm their partner, are they really worth it?
I don’t like the word ‘change’ because it seems to have been taken over by the please-your-man crowd, and in the context of partners, it just makes me think of abusive controlling behaviour. Change can be good or bad, or forced. Growth? Growth is good, and has to be voluntary - you can’t grow up without your consent and effort.
Hugo,
I have read this post and the comments attached to it, and I was hoping you could perhaps give me some advice as well.
I am a more recent addition to the academic feminist world, in fact I’ve only taken one class, but I’ve been doing a huge amount of reading on my own since. I identify strongly in this area, and my goal is to eventually be a professor of women’s studies.
How to talk to my husband is what I want to ask about though. I feel like I do not know how to introduce him to the theoretical side of feminism without getting his back up. The last three times we’ve discussed theory it’s turned into a rather bitter fight. Last night he gave me all the regular replies “what you want me to feel guilty?” “I feel attacked when you bring this stuff up” (I had pointed out an interesting example of male privilege in a movie) “[oppression/privilege] sounds like a conspiracy theory” “I don’t oppress you” …
The thing of it is Hugo, this is one the most feminist man I’ve ever met. He is comfortable with my having a level of autonomy I rarely see in other relationships. We have an open marriage, where I am the only party who has acted on those “benefits” and he encourages me in this. He’s completely devoid of any homo- or transphobia, even though he has no homosexual tendencies or inclinations. I have more education than him, and he encourages me to go further, and is perfectly comfortable with me eventually making the money for us. He’s comfortable with my decision not to have children but if I change my mind he’d like to have them too. Not only that but if it was economically feasible he’d like to be a househusband.
This man is not a tool of the patriarchy. And for a heterosexual, white man, with no social or gender justice background, I find that incredible.
And yet he feels attacked with I start waxing theoretical.
I don’t get it. I’m completely bewildered as to why it seems I can’t talk to him about this stuff, when we talk rather easily about other sensitive matters. I mean, this is the man who, when I’m getting into arguments with other people online, gives me great replies! Recently I was being told how “sad” I was for sometimes finding cat calling threatening. He said “well, it’s not ok for [guys who cat call] to practice terrorism against other people, and that’s what that is”.
!!!
Help me find a way to introduce this concept to him without getting his back up. I am stuck.
whatsername,
“I feel like I do not know how to introduce him to the theoretical side of feminism without getting his back up.”
I do not know what the “theoretical side of feminism” is or means. Most of the things that Hugo and others talk about on this blog are practical: “do this, or don’t do that” type of things to be a feminist.
Would you give one or two examples of theoretical feminism that makes your husband feel attacked?
whatsername,
Have you point-blank asked him why he gets so defensive? Have you told him that he’s one of the most feminist men you know, and that your “waxing theoretical” isn’t meant to be an attack on him? Perhaps letting him know that he’s already living your theories will put him at ease, and his answers will help guide you.
I think B asks the question — and suggests the tack — I would. Is it a knee-jerk response to theory itself? I must admit, I’m famous for rolling my eyes when theory comes up. Reading Cixous and Irigaray and the rest of ‘em was one of the more painful parts of my academic career. If you could be more specific about the substance of the objection, perhaps we could help more…
Last night we were talking about the existence of male privilege.
I talked to him this morning and he says I am too general and use too many pronouns… But I don’t know how else to approach it, there’s so much involved in how oppression/privilege works.
B, yes I have told him that. I asked him again this morning if he knew he was the most feminist man I know, and he said yes, and then said the thing about all the pronouns I use. And that the topic was so general. It seems like he starts tuning out anytime I use words like “oppression” “privilege” “Patriarchy” “they” that sort of thing… But how do I talk about privilege without using the word? lol
I admit to having some problems with how the word “privilege” is used in a lot of feminist writings. Being an armchair historian (my main hobby), I first think of aristocratic privilege when I hear the word “privilege”. Aristocratic privilege being special rights granted to the aristocracy by the King. In the legal profession, privilege means confidential communication between client and attorney. Originally, lawyers were granted this special right by the King.
When I read the word “privilege” in feminist writings, it has multiple meanings. Several of the meanings used contradict each other. Similar to how cleave means to separate or join together. I understand why there are two meaning of cleave because they came from two different languages. I don’t understand the use of contradictory meanings of privilege in feminism.
Wahtsername,
I was born in a country with a genocidal past and occasionally harassed because of it. In the beginning that felt horrible and I was very defensive. But eventually I learned to live with it because I did not have anything to do with that, so I did not care. I wasn’t guilty.
But feminism has constructed an all-pervasive system without individual guilt that still allows to shift blame around based on group membership: patriarchy. I’ve suffered from feminist indoctrination in my personal development and I can tell you that the broad strokes of badly understood sociology can be quite intimidating and infuriating to a young person that is being accused of being guilty without having done anything.
Thus, short of a sex change your husband will always be an “oppressor” in feminist ideology whether or not you earn the money, whether or not you’re the only one taking liberties in your relationship, whether or not he already lives your theories.
See, I occasionally feel defensive and infuriated simply because Hugo has written something about how bad men are and I somehow interpret it as a personal attack and react accordingly - because I am a man (who cares, although I should probably be one who doesn’t, it’s a lot healthier). And this a just a blog.
As I mentioned above I haven’t had a girlfrind who self-identified as feminist, but I’ve had a few infuriating discussions with feminist friends that led to extended no-speaking periods. I certainly couldn’t live with a person who’d see me as a member of an “oppressor class” however much she’d tell me I was different, and if she’d stand by the theory, well, then I’d probably be wrong for her, and she’d be wrong for me. Other people have other incompatibilities. For me, some political is personal, too.
This is a loose-loose setup, in my opinion. But there was a post a while ago on feministe about how to have a “feminist relationship” and how to be a “feminist boyfriend”. You may want to check there for some advice. Some “feminist” relationships apparently exist. Please note that when I say feminist I mean relationships in which both parts accept “male oppression” and a specific defitiniton of “patriarchy” as an integral part of their relationship, not simply “gender justice” and equality, which is something everyone should be interested in.
Btw, if you say “but you’re not like them” my next mental step would be “so I’m not a real man for you?”…
Just my 2 ct., good luck to you two.
Fortunately my husband does not even remotely make a leap like that one.
whatsername -
If the generic nature of your conversations is what is turning him off, it sounds like you just need to be more specific. I can understand his dislike of your pronouns - saying “they” this and “they” that DOES sound conspiracy-like, it doesn’t really point to anything tangible (”they” who? it’s not like there is a literal Grand Council on Patriarchy making the rules).
If your goal is to become a women’s studies professor, you might ask him to help you figure out how to help him relate to your theories - because that’s what you’ll need to do in the classroom, too. Telling your students all about the “oppression” that “they” are subjecting women to is just going to leave them confused. If you approach it from that angle, he may open up to responding to you when you wax theoretical rather than tuning you out.
I agree with B’s points. Being more specific rather than general tends to help focus communication and therefore is usually a more effective tool. Offering examples can be helpful too. It’s infuriating when people make sweeping generalizations or offer cliches, although most of us are occasionally guilty of doing so. I tune people out all the time and I usually do so when I feel that the other person is doing all the talking, or I feel that they are not interested in what I have to say. They may say that they are interested in what I have to say, but there responses clearly indicate otherwise. I can’t emphasize this enough…their responses to me, generally informs me of whether or not they are listening. Communication is a two-way street, but with some people it can all too often feel like it is all about them. If I don’t feel included I may be polite, depending on the situation, but usually I’ll tune them out and if they don’t take the hint, I’ll try to find a way to avoid them. I’m not saying you do this, but getting someone to participate is sometimes as simple as learning when to listen.