Comments on: The art of losing, not always a disaster: on the language of virginity http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/ Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:51:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Jessica Zaylia http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-353153 Jessica Zaylia Sat, 24 May 2008 19:51:12 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-353153 p.s. I do propose a counter-language. I suggest we should speak of our first sexual encounters (if we want to even do such a thing) in terms of when we first "asserted our sexuality" and not when we first "lost our virginity." p.s. I do propose a counter-language. I suggest we should speak of our first sexual encounters (if we want to even do such a thing) in terms of when we first “asserted our sexuality” and not when we first “lost our virginity.”

]]> By: Jessica Zaylia http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-353135 Jessica Zaylia Sat, 24 May 2008 19:32:26 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-353135 Hello. It has been interesting to have sparked so much conversation. Indeed, I do not think we disagree as much as you think we do. If you read my article to which you cite, you will find that it is precisely because - what we refer to as "losing virginity" should be a good and positive thing - that I call for a more positive sexual linguistics. I truly enjoyed your piece, and, as I said, I agree with it whole-heartedly, even if I do not agree that our views conflict. Best regards, Jessie Zaylia Hello. It has been interesting to have sparked so much conversation. Indeed, I do not think we disagree as much as you think we do. If you read my article to which you cite, you will find that it is precisely because - what we refer to as “losing virginity” should be a good and positive thing - that I call for a more positive sexual linguistics.

I truly enjoyed your piece, and, as I said, I agree with it whole-heartedly, even if I do not agree that our views conflict.

Best regards,

Jessie Zaylia

]]> By: octopod http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-308470 octopod Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:13:05 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-308470 Well, as I understand it, it's usually something to be "loosed" rather than "lost" in a lot of Latin love poetry..."de eia virginea reserassem vincula" (Carmina Burana, <i>Circa mea pectora</i>) comes to mind. I like that a bit better, especially for women -- chastity is a chain or a necklace, to be loosened or worn as one sees fit, and it shouldn't become a shackle... Well, as I understand it, it’s usually something to be “loosed” rather than “lost” in a lot of Latin love poetry…”de eia virginea reserassem vincula” (Carmina Burana, Circa mea pectora) comes to mind. I like that a bit better, especially for women — chastity is a chain or a necklace, to be loosened or worn as one sees fit, and it shouldn’t become a shackle…

]]> By: bmmg39 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-302670 bmmg39 Sat, 12 Apr 2008 03:27:34 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-302670 Yes, Mythago, once again we see that what sexually inactive males face is just the other side of the coin from what sexually active females face. Not mutually exclusive at all. Just as my comments on the "chivalry" thread, my pointing out one doesn't negate the other. Yes, Mythago, once again we see that what sexually inactive males face is just the other side of the coin from what sexually active females face. Not mutually exclusive at all. Just as my comments on the “chivalry” thread, my pointing out one doesn’t negate the other.

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-302484 mythago Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:37:22 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-302484 bmmg, the fact that men who are not sexually active are looked down on doesn't mean a thing about "virginity" and the mixed messages women get. bmmg, the fact that men who are not sexually active are looked down on doesn’t mean a thing about “virginity” and the mixed messages women get.

]]> By: bmmg39 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-301906 bmmg39 Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:27:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-301906 As a guy who (not unhappily) still "has his V-card," I hold that the phrase with the stigma in our society is not "lose one's virginity," but rather "virgin" itself. Rather than simply meaning someone who hasn't partaken of sex, the word is now loaded with the baggage of being naïve and sheltered. The film THE 40-YEAR-OLD VIRGIN seemed to use the word as an instant punchline; we don't know anything else about the movie yet, but "it must be hilarious, right? I mean, can you imagine? Being THAT OLD and STILL being a virgin?!" In the movie's poster, the protagonist appears dressed as a nine-year-old, with an ethereal glow about him, suggesting that he has never even HEARD of the word "sex." Those who put sex at the center of their lives simply cannot process the idea that there are others who've never tried it out. "For many, what they wanted to 'lose' was a sense of themselves as childlike." How very sad. "I still believe that our sexuality is a gift from God, although I no longer put virginity on a pedestal." Perhaps the answer is to put neither virginity nor sex on a pedestal. As a guy who (not unhappily) still “has his V-card,” I hold that the phrase with the stigma in our society is not “lose one’s virginity,” but rather “virgin” itself. Rather than simply meaning someone who hasn’t partaken of sex, the word is now loaded with the baggage of being naïve and sheltered. The film THE 40-YEAR-OLD VIRGIN seemed to use the word as an instant punchline; we don’t know anything else about the movie yet, but “it must be hilarious, right? I mean, can you imagine? Being THAT OLD and STILL being a virgin?!” In the movie’s poster, the protagonist appears dressed as a nine-year-old, with an ethereal glow about him, suggesting that he has never even HEARD of the word “sex.” Those who put sex at the center of their lives simply cannot process the idea that there are others who’ve never tried it out.

“For many, what they wanted to ‘lose’ was a sense of themselves as childlike.”

How very sad.

“I still believe that our sexuality is a gift from God, although I no longer put virginity on a pedestal.”

Perhaps the answer is to put neither virginity nor sex on a pedestal.

]]> By: Karen http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-300471 Karen Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:53:10 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-300471 Richard, I haven't read Andrea's book, however what you say here, "And she talks about the historical shift from that idea of virginity to the idea that losing one’s virginity–and Dworkin was talking about women, not men–is about becoming a woman, becoming an adult, that somehow without the experience of having been fucked one cannot be, fully, a woman," strikes a chord with me. In fact, I'd say the strong message I heard as a teenager is that to be a woman one has to experiece being fucked by a man. Screwing women was also the measurement of what it took to be a man. I think if many of my girlfriends were truthful about their experiences they would say the same. I don't attach much sentimentality to the experience, because although it was quite personal it was neither romantic, intimate or positive. The language of loss could apply if one hears the message that their worth is viewed in terms of their fuckability factor and that is what it means to be a woman as a measurement of their usefulness to males. Richard,

I haven’t read Andrea’s book, however what you say here, “And she talks about the historical shift from that idea of virginity to the idea that losing one’s virginity–and Dworkin was talking about women, not men–is about becoming a woman, becoming an adult, that somehow without the experience of having been fucked one cannot be, fully, a woman,” strikes a chord with me. In fact, I’d say the strong message I heard as a teenager is that to be a woman one has to experiece being fucked by a man. Screwing women was also the measurement of what it took to be a man. I think if many of my girlfriends were truthful about their experiences they would say the same. I don’t attach much sentimentality to the experience, because although it was quite personal it was neither romantic, intimate or positive. The language of loss could apply if one hears the message that their worth is viewed in terms of their fuckability factor and that is what it means to be a woman as a measurement of their usefulness to males.

]]> By: Richard Jeffrey Newman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-300336 Richard Jeffrey Newman Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:24:46 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-300336 I wish I had Andrea Dworkin's book Intercourse in front of me right now, because what she says about virginity in her chapter on Joan of Arc is so apt. If I remember correctly, she talks about virginity as being about something other, or at least in addition to, a vagina that has not been entered by a penis, as a state that a woman might choose to move in and out of at any time in her life simply by choosing to be, or not to be, sexually active. (I may not have that precisely right; it's been a long time since I read the book.) And she talks about the historical shift from that idea of virginity to the idea that losing one's virginity--and Dworkin was talking about women, not men--is about becoming a woman, becoming an adult, that somehow without the experience of having been fucked one cannot be, fully, a woman. I wish I could remember more of her actual argument, because it goes very precisely to the question of the language of loss when it is applied to virginity. Anyway, I just wanted to note that what Dworkin wrote is worth looking at in this context. I wish I had Andrea Dworkin’s book Intercourse in front of me right now, because what she says about virginity in her chapter on Joan of Arc is so apt. If I remember correctly, she talks about virginity as being about something other, or at least in addition to, a vagina that has not been entered by a penis, as a state that a woman might choose to move in and out of at any time in her life simply by choosing to be, or not to be, sexually active. (I may not have that precisely right; it’s been a long time since I read the book.) And she talks about the historical shift from that idea of virginity to the idea that losing one’s virginity–and Dworkin was talking about women, not men–is about becoming a woman, becoming an adult, that somehow without the experience of having been fucked one cannot be, fully, a woman. I wish I could remember more of her actual argument, because it goes very precisely to the question of the language of loss when it is applied to virginity. Anyway, I just wanted to note that what Dworkin wrote is worth looking at in this context.

]]> By: Daisy Bond http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-299141 Daisy Bond Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:04:25 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-299141 This should read: (so that people are <b>not*</b> “pre-sexual” before they’ve done certain things) This should read:

(so that people are not* “pre-sexual” before they’ve done certain things)

]]> By: Daisy Bond http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-299137 Daisy Bond Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:02:48 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/08/the-art-of-losing-not-always-a-disaster-on-the-language-of-virginity/#comment-299137 I like Leslie's concept about sexual experience as a continuum. There wasn't one night when I "lost" my virginity, since I only sleep with women and the cultural framing does hold that virginity is lost via PIV intercourse. I made a transition from being someone who hasn't yet had sex with someone else to someone who is sexually active over a pretty long period of time -- about two years, really. And I'm still learning about sex, going to new places with it; I hope that this will be true five, ten, twenty years from. That framing -- of a spectrum we all travel -- is useful for a few reasons. It takes the emphasis off any one specific act; it allows people to locate themselves on it no matter what stage of sexual experience they are at presently (so that people are "pre-sexual" before they've done certain things); and, perhaps most importantly, it takes away the binary framing -- so that everyone is still learning and growing, no matter how much sex they've had. It's a much better reflection of reality, I think, for people of all genders and orientations. I like Leslie’s concept about sexual experience as a continuum. There wasn’t one night when I “lost” my virginity, since I only sleep with women and the cultural framing does hold that virginity is lost via PIV intercourse. I made a transition from being someone who hasn’t yet had sex with someone else to someone who is sexually active over a pretty long period of time — about two years, really. And I’m still learning about sex, going to new places with it; I hope that this will be true five, ten, twenty years from.

That framing — of a spectrum we all travel — is useful for a few reasons. It takes the emphasis off any one specific act; it allows people to locate themselves on it no matter what stage of sexual experience they are at presently (so that people are “pre-sexual” before they’ve done certain things); and, perhaps most importantly, it takes away the binary framing — so that everyone is still learning and growing, no matter how much sex they’ve had. It’s a much better reflection of reality, I think, for people of all genders and orientations.

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