Comments on: “If I were better, he would never leave”: on romantic illusions, writing screenplays, and myths of male weakness http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/ Tue, 02 Dec 2008 03:18:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: B http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306618 B Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:27:55 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306618 I've noticed a pattern lately - people treat Hugo's posts like they're in a vaccuum. If he writes about one gender, a bunch of people jump on him for singling that gender out as the "one who has to do everything" or somesuch nonsense. It's too bad more people don't read these thoughts in the context of your entire blog, where you write about both genders and encourage both to grow and challenge themselves. I’ve noticed a pattern lately - people treat Hugo’s posts like they’re in a vaccuum. If he writes about one gender, a bunch of people jump on him for singling that gender out as the “one who has to do everything” or somesuch nonsense. It’s too bad more people don’t read these thoughts in the context of your entire blog, where you write about both genders and encourage both to grow and challenge themselves.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306570 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:16:50 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306570 Lalouve, we all have jobs to do in relationships. If you read through my archives on the subject, you will see that I have written five times as often about what men need to do as I have about what women's task it. It is NOT women's job to fix their relationships; it is always every adult's job to fix herself or himself. Lalouve, we all have jobs to do in relationships. If you read through my archives on the subject, you will see that I have written five times as often about what men need to do as I have about what women’s task it.

It is NOT women’s job to fix their relationships; it is always every adult’s job to fix herself or himself.

]]> By: lalouve http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306486 lalouve Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:35:49 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306486 It may be a myth we ingrain in our daughter (I think your perspective here is slightly US-centric), but when you go on to state that "part of the job for women isn’t just letting go of the relentless pursuit of unattainable perfection. It’s also resisting a cultural myth that the success or failure of any heterosexual relationship rests primarily with the female partner" you are supporting, not debunking, that myth. You are stating here what "the job for women" is in order to fix relationships, thus leaving the responsibility for the relationship squarely on women's shoulders. If it's our job to fix ourselves and thus fix our relationships, we are still victims of the myth of female power in heterosexual relationships. In actuality, most women (with the exception of some, not all, white upper-middle class, highly educated women) have almost no power over the relationships they're in, for the reasons Ide Cyan stated above. There is need for not just for removing the myth of female power over relationship, but for a radical rethinking of power in relationships: a rethinking which needs to be done by men. It may be a myth we ingrain in our daughter (I think your perspective here is slightly US-centric), but when you go on to state that “part of the job for women isn’t just letting go of the relentless pursuit of unattainable perfection. It’s also resisting a cultural myth that the success or failure of any heterosexual relationship rests primarily with the female partner” you are supporting, not debunking, that myth. You are stating here what “the job for women” is in order to fix relationships, thus leaving the responsibility for the relationship squarely on women’s shoulders. If it’s our job to fix ourselves and thus fix our relationships, we are still victims of the myth of female power in heterosexual relationships.

In actuality, most women (with the exception of some, not all, white upper-middle class, highly educated women) have almost no power over the relationships they’re in, for the reasons Ide Cyan stated above. There is need for not just for removing the myth of female power over relationship, but for a radical rethinking of power in relationships: a rethinking which needs to be done by men.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306174 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:10:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306174 Ide, I'm writing about an illusion -- an illusion with which many women, alas, are raised. Control through manipulation and "pleasing" is a myth, but it is one we ingrain in our daughters. Ide, I’m writing about an illusion — an illusion with which many women, alas, are raised. Control through manipulation and “pleasing” is a myth, but it is one we ingrain in our daughters.

]]> By: Ide Cyan http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306069 Ide Cyan Mon, 14 Apr 2008 01:35:31 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-306069 Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Hugo, I call bullshit on your post. How passive. How utterly passive your view of control within relationships is. And absolutely glaring the omission of the "reciprocal" means as used by <em>men</em> to control relationships. Neverfuckingmind perfection. Talk about making your partner economically dependent on you. Talk about threatening, intimidating, undermining the other's self-esteem by comments and actions. Talk about men killing women who leave them. Talk about earning more money so your wife won't have to work and won't have an independent income. Talk about driving down women's wages in the workplace so they'll have to marry "providers". Talk about improving your physical fitness, bulking up, eating "like a man", while she starves herself to attain beauty standards that exacerbate sexual dimorphism and the advantage of physical power of one partner over the other. Talk about men's pantomime of incompetence, used to coerce women into performing domestic services for them within loving families. Talk about objectifying women to the point where the only way women can conceive of controlling men is by being the perfect objects of their desire, indeed. Look at the frelling politics, if you want to talk about control, and leave your lunacy of manipulations through perfection -- which is far, far from the "people-pleaser" position, as a friend of mine pointed out -- out of it. Objects do not direct relationships. Actors do. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Hugo, I call bullshit on your post.

How passive. How utterly passive your view of control within relationships is.

And absolutely glaring the omission of the “reciprocal” means as used by men to control relationships. Neverfuckingmind perfection. Talk about making your partner economically dependent on you. Talk about threatening, intimidating, undermining the other’s self-esteem by comments and actions. Talk about men killing women who leave them. Talk about earning more money so your wife won’t have to work and won’t have an independent income. Talk about driving down women’s wages in the workplace so they’ll have to marry “providers”. Talk about improving your physical fitness, bulking up, eating “like a man”, while she starves herself to attain beauty standards that exacerbate sexual dimorphism and the advantage of physical power of one partner over the other. Talk about men’s pantomime of incompetence, used to coerce women into performing domestic services for them within loving families.

Talk about objectifying women to the point where the only way women can conceive of controlling men is by being the perfect objects of their desire, indeed.

Look at the frelling politics, if you want to talk about control, and leave your lunacy of manipulations through perfection — which is far, far from the “people-pleaser” position, as a friend of mine pointed out — out of it. Objects do not direct relationships. Actors do.

]]> By: Lisa http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-302598 Lisa Sat, 12 Apr 2008 02:05:09 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-302598 I don't think anyone can really love a doormat. You don't have to be a "challenge" but you do have to be your own person - there are things about you that made your partner love you. So many people (mostly women but some men) are far too quick to give them up to better serve their partner. I don’t think anyone can really love a doormat. You don’t have to be a “challenge” but you do have to be your own person - there are things about you that made your partner love you. So many people (mostly women but some men) are far too quick to give them up to better serve their partner.

]]> By: Karen http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-301904 Karen Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:26:13 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-301904 Kate, Some men and women do expect to be the center of attention and they do not reciprocate. It is called being self-absorbed, selfish and narcissism. It is important to become aware of this problem. I would say that self-awareness is far more important, because you cannot change other people. You can change yourself and your response to others and often times that means leaving a relationship when it feels destrucitve or unhealthy. When I spoke of guys who may like a challenge it is because that daily challenge often creates conflict and constant conflict is often cited as a reason why people leave relationships. Only you can decide the worth or value of the relationship...If you're involved with a guy who drinks heavily don't delude yourself that he will change. Only he can change himself and all your love and support will not change him. If you were involved with a guy like this the important question to ask is who does he remind you of and what qualities does he have that remind you of say a parent....That is the self-awareness that I speak of. Kate,

Some men and women do expect to be the center of attention and they do not reciprocate. It is called being self-absorbed, selfish and narcissism. It is important to become aware of this problem. I would say that self-awareness is far more important, because you cannot change other people. You can change yourself and your response to others and often times that means leaving a relationship when it feels destrucitve or unhealthy. When I spoke of guys who may like a challenge it is because that daily challenge often creates conflict and constant conflict is often cited as a reason why people leave relationships. Only you can decide the worth or value of the relationship…If you’re involved with a guy who drinks heavily don’t delude yourself that he will change. Only he can change himself and all your love and support will not change him. If you were involved with a guy like this the important question to ask is who does he remind you of and what qualities does he have that remind you of say a parent….That is the self-awareness that I speak of.

]]> By: Mermade http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-301892 Mermade Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:09:27 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-301892 Karen, having read the book a little more, I realized that it focuses less on making yourself "a challenege," and more on emphasizing the importance of having your own life, needs, and priorities. If you drop everything just to be with him all the time, then that will likely turn him off and cause resentment within your relationship. I certainly don't agree with everything the book says. In all this, it seems like men never do anything wrong and, if something goes wrong in the relationship, it's all our fault. Like, the book says to not have sex for a month. If you do, the guy will assume that you're cheap. Of course, the book never asks you to wonder how "worthy" a man might be if he sleeps with you on the first date. They still play on the double-standard, even though "Why Men Love Bitches" preaches a lot of feminist ideals. I'll write up a full post about it over at my place, once I move my blog. Karen, having read the book a little more, I realized that it focuses less on making yourself “a challenege,” and more on emphasizing the importance of having your own life, needs, and priorities. If you drop everything just to be with him all the time, then that will likely turn him off and cause resentment within your relationship. I certainly don’t agree with everything the book says. In all this, it seems like men never do anything wrong and, if something goes wrong in the relationship, it’s all our fault. Like, the book says to not have sex for a month. If you do, the guy will assume that you’re cheap. Of course, the book never asks you to wonder how “worthy” a man might be if he sleeps with you on the first date. They still play on the double-standard, even though “Why Men Love Bitches” preaches a lot of feminist ideals.

I’ll write up a full post about it over at my place, once I move my blog.

]]> By: kate http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-301316 kate Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:31:24 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-301316 <i>Initially some guys may like a challenge, but the relationship will change and the challenge changes too “she’s unreasonable,” and “too much of a challenge,” “too demanding,” etc.</i> Is it different with women? Your comment sounded to me (perhaps wrongly) as if most men expect women to put themselves in the centre of their lives without doing the same in return. Why is it worth to be in a relationship with one, then? /depressed/ Initially some guys may like a challenge, but the relationship will change and the challenge changes too “she’s unreasonable,” and “too much of a challenge,” “too demanding,” etc.
Is it different with women? Your comment sounded to me (perhaps wrongly) as if most men expect women to put themselves in the centre of their lives without doing the same in return. Why is it worth to be in a relationship with one, then? /depressed/

]]> By: sneha http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-300874 sneha Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:42:40 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/10/if-i-were-better-he-would-never-leave-on-romantic-illusions-writing-screenplays-and-myths-of-male-weakness/#comment-300874 you speak truth, dear hugo. you speak truth, dear hugo.

]]>