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	<title>Comments on: On Lorna the Jungle Girl and the dark-skinned natives: a reluctant challenge to Amanda Marcotte: UPDATED</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327330</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327330</guid>
		<description>Folks, we've wandered way off topic. Comments are now closed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, we&#8217;ve wandered way off topic. Comments are now closed</p>
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		<title>By: Manju</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327315</link>
		<dc:creator>Manju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327315</guid>
		<description>"I spent a large part of my life in Britain where Indians are included in the category of ‘Blacks’ and treated no differently."

Yeah, I was in England till age 5. i recall being called "blacky" and my dad left for America in part b/c he knew he couldn't get a fair shake there. but America is different and simply does not have the same colonial relationship with India. the india-uk relationship is a complex paradigm within itself, but yes, it does more closely parallel white-black relations in the US.

but the bullying your kids experience does in fact ring true, though I'm certain they'd experience the same thing in a Black or Hispanic school, maybe even worse. Asians are on the low end of the totem pole when it comes to masculinity, whereas blacks are stereotyped as sexual predators...and that's an example of my greater point. since i have some experience here, my advise to your kids is to play sports and lift some weights. that goes a long way.

or they can take the time-honored jewish tradition of studying harder than anyone else, make a fortune on wall street or silicon valley, and get your revenge then. Malcolm x is right, don't beg the white man for acceptance, don't even ask them to look at their white privilege. remember, goldman Sachs was created b/c Jews couldn't make partner at the House of Morgan. Now look at them. the free markets are your friend.

just my privildged 2-cents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I spent a large part of my life in Britain where Indians are included in the category of ‘Blacks’ and treated no differently.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, I was in England till age 5. i recall being called &#8220;blacky&#8221; and my dad left for America in part b/c he knew he couldn&#8217;t get a fair shake there. but America is different and simply does not have the same colonial relationship with India. the india-uk relationship is a complex paradigm within itself, but yes, it does more closely parallel white-black relations in the US.</p>
<p>but the bullying your kids experience does in fact ring true, though I&#8217;m certain they&#8217;d experience the same thing in a Black or Hispanic school, maybe even worse. Asians are on the low end of the totem pole when it comes to masculinity, whereas blacks are stereotyped as sexual predators&#8230;and that&#8217;s an example of my greater point. since i have some experience here, my advise to your kids is to play sports and lift some weights. that goes a long way.</p>
<p>or they can take the time-honored jewish tradition of studying harder than anyone else, make a fortune on wall street or silicon valley, and get your revenge then. Malcolm x is right, don&#8217;t beg the white man for acceptance, don&#8217;t even ask them to look at their white privilege. remember, goldman Sachs was created b/c Jews couldn&#8217;t make partner at the House of Morgan. Now look at them. the free markets are your friend.</p>
<p>just my privildged 2-cents.</p>
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		<title>By: stoneself</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327310</link>
		<dc:creator>stoneself</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327310</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;well, look how much power the so called rwoc weild over the progressive blogosphere, including hugo.&lt;/blockquote&gt;so basically you're equating being in the right about the invisibility of white privilege with browbeating/coercion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>well, look how much power the so called rwoc weild over the progressive blogosphere, including hugo.</p></blockquote>
<p>so basically you&#8217;re equating being in the right about the invisibility of white privilege with browbeating/coercion.</p>
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		<title>By: Kali</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327297</link>
		<dc:creator>Kali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327297</guid>
		<description>Manju
BTW I have read that SF article. The people who wrote it also have an agenda - and trust me its not proAsian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manju<br />
BTW I have read that SF article. The people who wrote it also have an agenda - and trust me its not proAsian.</p>
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		<title>By: Kali</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327294</link>
		<dc:creator>Kali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327294</guid>
		<description>Sent that last one off too soon....

South Asians at MIT etc did nothing to  diminish my son's pain.

The race theorists would shoot me down but I do know that there is only one human race and I try not to parse or generalize the differences between the 'oppressed' too much and   do what I can to speak out against injustice when I see it and to help those that I can in a more concrete way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sent that last one off too soon&#8230;.</p>
<p>South Asians at MIT etc did nothing to  diminish my son&#8217;s pain.</p>
<p>The race theorists would shoot me down but I do know that there is only one human race and I try not to parse or generalize the differences between the &#8216;oppressed&#8217; too much and   do what I can to speak out against injustice when I see it and to help those that I can in a more concrete way.</p>
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		<title>By: Kali</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327277</link>
		<dc:creator>Kali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 18:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327277</guid>
		<description>Manju
I spent a large part of my life in Britain where Indians are included in the category of 'Blacks' and treated no differently.

It is only in this country that Blacks or African Americans are treated much worse than other minorities (because of slavery )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manju<br />
I spent a large part of my life in Britain where Indians are included in the category of &#8216;Blacks&#8217; and treated no differently.</p>
<p>It is only in this country that Blacks or African Americans are treated much worse than other minorities (because of slavery )</p>
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		<title>By: Manju</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327267</link>
		<dc:creator>Manju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327267</guid>
		<description>kali:

I know what its like to grow up as an Indian kid in an all-white neighborhood. And while your kids will face a lot of racism, with Indians overrepresented at stanford, mit, and venture capital firms in silicon valley, not to mention secretive quant hedge funds, i doubt the racism they experience will be the same as blacks. 

so no, i don't think white males like hugo are socially conditioned to ignore south asians intellectually. in fact, just the opposite. i remember one professor of mine ( a brilliant, black african marxist) scold me when i was slacking off by saying "but every indian i meet studies hard. what's wrong with you?" Heh. this was back in the 80's, so i'd ct him some slack. 

don't believe me? read this piece of "journalism" from the san francisco chronicle, bemoaning the lack of POC in the medical profession. Observe where asians fit in, and tell me if you can spot the progressive racism:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/02/BAJVVUN1G.DTL</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kali:</p>
<p>I know what its like to grow up as an Indian kid in an all-white neighborhood. And while your kids will face a lot of racism, with Indians overrepresented at stanford, mit, and venture capital firms in silicon valley, not to mention secretive quant hedge funds, i doubt the racism they experience will be the same as blacks. </p>
<p>so no, i don&#8217;t think white males like hugo are socially conditioned to ignore south asians intellectually. in fact, just the opposite. i remember one professor of mine ( a brilliant, black african marxist) scold me when i was slacking off by saying &#8220;but every indian i meet studies hard. what&#8217;s wrong with you?&#8221; Heh. this was back in the 80&#8217;s, so i&#8217;d ct him some slack. </p>
<p>don&#8217;t believe me? read this piece of &#8220;journalism&#8221; from the san francisco chronicle, bemoaning the lack of POC in the medical profession. Observe where asians fit in, and tell me if you can spot the progressive racism:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/02/BAJVVUN1G.DTL" rel="nofollow">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/02/BAJVVUN1G.DTL</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kali</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327222</link>
		<dc:creator>Kali</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327222</guid>
		<description>I had the 'privilege' of scraping and cleaning dried 'spit-balls' from the hair and from all over the brand-new (birthday present) jacket of my 14 year old son on his birthday AFTER I had complained to the Principal about the racist taunts, abuse (including being pushed into lockers and beaten) attending predominantly white high school. My son felt I had betrayed his trust and NEVER again told me about what was going on at school, until very recently - he is now in his early 20s. 

Manju, I could tell you many more stories about myself and my other child (my husband is white) but it would be too painful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had the &#8216;privilege&#8217; of scraping and cleaning dried &#8217;spit-balls&#8217; from the hair and from all over the brand-new (birthday present) jacket of my 14 year old son on his birthday AFTER I had complained to the Principal about the racist taunts, abuse (including being pushed into lockers and beaten) attending predominantly white high school. My son felt I had betrayed his trust and NEVER again told me about what was going on at school, until very recently - he is now in his early 20s. </p>
<p>Manju, I could tell you many more stories about myself and my other child (my husband is white) but it would be too painful.</p>
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		<title>By: Manju</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327185</link>
		<dc:creator>Manju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327185</guid>
		<description>"asia and china and the pacific rim"

i meant india, not asia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;asia and china and the pacific rim&#8221;</p>
<p>i meant india, not asia.</p>
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		<title>By: Manju</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327164</link>
		<dc:creator>Manju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 16:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/04/24/on-lorna-the-jungle-girl-and-the-dark-skinned-natives-a-reluctant-challenge-to-amanda-marcotte/#comment-327164</guid>
		<description>"say what?"

well, look how much power the so called rwoc weild over the progressive blogosphere, including hugo. in the paradigm under which we're working, kali's statement resonates b/c she presumably has the power to see the invisible knapsack. her opinions should be privileged, it is argued, while white males should stfu and listen to those who actually experience racism. 

now enen if you accept this philosophical foundation, kali's observations are problematic. in America, whites generally don't have south Asians as maids, as they do Hispanics or blacks. entire books are written putting asians on top of the iq chain. asia and  china and the pacific rim are at least emerging economic powers. asian males are rarely viewed as sexual predators, in fact , they are often emasculated in the media. bigotry against us exists, but it is more likely to parallel anti-semitism (resentment) that anti-black racism. 

if we were talking in the context of saudi arabia where south asians where bought over as indentured servants and don't have the same political or religious  rights as the Saudis, i'd probably agree that kali may have a point. but in the american context, i see no reason to privilege her opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;say what?&#8221;</p>
<p>well, look how much power the so called rwoc weild over the progressive blogosphere, including hugo. in the paradigm under which we&#8217;re working, kali&#8217;s statement resonates b/c she presumably has the power to see the invisible knapsack. her opinions should be privileged, it is argued, while white males should stfu and listen to those who actually experience racism. </p>
<p>now enen if you accept this philosophical foundation, kali&#8217;s observations are problematic. in America, whites generally don&#8217;t have south Asians as maids, as they do Hispanics or blacks. entire books are written putting asians on top of the iq chain. asia and  china and the pacific rim are at least emerging economic powers. asian males are rarely viewed as sexual predators, in fact , they are often emasculated in the media. bigotry against us exists, but it is more likely to parallel anti-semitism (resentment) that anti-black racism. </p>
<p>if we were talking in the context of saudi arabia where south asians where bought over as indentured servants and don&#8217;t have the same political or religious  rights as the Saudis, i&#8217;d probably agree that kali may have a point. but in the american context, i see no reason to privilege her opinions.</p>
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