Comments on: Hugo’s back pages: of charity galas, sophomoric cynicism, veganism, PETA, socks, and the very real sense that the world can be changed http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:04:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: John Spragge http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-349591 John Spragge Wed, 21 May 2008 18:52:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-349591 Hugo, I have worked with an impoverished First Nations community, one of many for whom Peta's fur boycott made the last 500 years of oppression and genocide that much worse. When you claim to have no problem with Peta's anti-fur campaigns more serious than their use of highly privileged models in advertisements where they suggest a willingness to go naked, I find that absurd, offensive and more than a bit racist. Traditional First Nations people have shared with me the concept of a web of life, which includes everyone, from the humans to the plants to the Earth, all linked in a relationship to one another and to the Creator. I believe this view has an intellectual coherence that attempts to extend the post-enlightenment European concept of individual rights into the animal kingdom lack. I don't know if, or to what extent, you have educated yourself on First Nations cultures. If you haven't studied them deeply, I can't see how you can have a complete view of the history of feminism. However complete or cursory your knowledge of First Nations culture, I don't believe you can dismiss their perspective. You oppose passionate commitment and certainty with "sophomoric cynicism"; let me suggest that a third approach exists, namely, that of humility and caution, based on an understanding that conviction does not equal either truth or morality. The hundreds of millions of victims of ideological certainties of all stripes over the last century bear a silent witness to that truth. Hugo, I have worked with an impoverished First Nations community, one of many for whom Peta’s fur boycott made the last 500 years of oppression and genocide that much worse. When you claim to have no problem with Peta’s anti-fur campaigns more serious than their use of highly privileged models in advertisements where they suggest a willingness to go naked, I find that absurd, offensive and more than a bit racist. Traditional First Nations people have shared with me the concept of a web of life, which includes everyone, from the humans to the plants to the Earth, all linked in a relationship to one another and to the Creator. I believe this view has an intellectual coherence that attempts to extend the post-enlightenment European concept of individual rights into the animal kingdom lack.

I don’t know if, or to what extent, you have educated yourself on First Nations cultures. If you haven’t studied them deeply, I can’t see how you can have a complete view of the history of feminism. However complete or cursory your knowledge of First Nations culture, I don’t believe you can dismiss their perspective.

You oppose passionate commitment and certainty with “sophomoric cynicism”; let me suggest that a third approach exists, namely, that of humility and caution, based on an understanding that conviction does not equal either truth or morality. The hundreds of millions of victims of ideological certainties of all stripes over the last century bear a silent witness to that truth.

]]> By: Angiportus http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-348397 Angiportus Tue, 20 May 2008 11:54:35 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-348397 Dietary issues aside...I'm appalled by the hopelessness of so many people, old and middle-aged as well as young. They say, "Oh, that will never happen", or a sardonic "good luck", or "we're screwed" and turn away, or start in with that horrid little titter, the blithe little phony laugh that I never could make sense of. It makes me want to go hang myself, but that seems counterproductive so I have no plans of that sort. But that combination of despair and laughter just short-circuits my mind. If these people ever have a potluck, I am going to bring Titter Tots. When I get discouraged, I think of the swamp I helped save, because I didn't listen to a relative who ws sure I couldn't. Dietary issues aside…I’m appalled by the hopelessness of so many people, old and middle-aged as well as young. They say, “Oh, that will never happen”, or a sardonic “good luck”, or “we’re screwed” and turn away, or start in with that horrid little titter, the blithe little phony laugh that I never could make sense of. It makes me want to go hang myself, but that seems counterproductive so I have no plans of that sort. But that combination of despair and laughter just short-circuits my mind. If these people ever have a potluck, I am going to bring Titter Tots.
When I get discouraged, I think of the swamp I helped save, because I didn’t listen to a relative who ws sure I couldn’t.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347692 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 19 May 2008 21:50:24 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347692 Bill, I'm not a physician or a nutritionist. I've met many, mostly through the huge number of doctors in Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, all of whom insist that our nutritional needs can be met on a plant-based diet. I've met kids raised to adulthood on vegan diets (breast milk is vegan, of course) It requires education and thought and a paradigm shift, but I'm assured by PCRM many M.D.s and nutritionists that it can be done. Bill, I’m not a physician or a nutritionist. I’ve met many, mostly through the huge number of doctors in Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, all of whom insist that our nutritional needs can be met on a plant-based diet. I’ve met kids raised to adulthood on vegan diets (breast milk is vegan, of course) It requires education and thought and a paradigm shift, but I’m assured by PCRM many M.D.s and nutritionists that it can be done.

]]> By: Funt Of A Thousand Faces http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347655 Funt Of A Thousand Faces Mon, 19 May 2008 21:21:09 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347655 This may or may not be the most apt of your vegan posts to raise this question but since it's your most recent I'll take it. Do you believe unequivocally, all wishful thinking aside, that all human beings can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet? As you know, I'm in the shallow end of this pool. I love the taste of meat and I hate the notion of what meat is so between those two factors I lean more towards not eating meat. The only other barometer is one's own health and.........brace yourself.......I'm not 100% convinced that no human beings need it. I'd like to think that was so but I'm not sure. Are you? BTW, I like the Byrds version better as I'm wont to do and I still love tormenting you with that. This may or may not be the most apt of your vegan posts to raise this question but since it’s your most recent I’ll take it.

Do you believe unequivocally, all wishful thinking aside, that all human beings can be perfectly healthy on a vegan diet?

As you know, I’m in the shallow end of this pool. I love the taste of meat and I hate the notion of what meat is so between those two factors I lean more towards not eating meat.
The only other barometer is one’s own health and………brace yourself…….I’m not 100% convinced that no human beings need it. I’d like to think that was so but I’m not sure. Are you?

BTW, I like the Byrds version better as I’m wont to do and I still love tormenting you with that.

]]> By: Mermade http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347566 Mermade Mon, 19 May 2008 19:43:39 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347566 This was very encouraging. I wrote about student apathy on my blog a couple days ago. I was worried that nobody cared what I had to say at the conference, but like Hilary said, if I reached ONE person, then it was worth it. http://sarahlaughed.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/on-the-borders-of-diversity-conference-and-student-apathy/ This was very encouraging. I wrote about student apathy on my blog a couple days ago. I was worried that nobody cared what I had to say at the conference, but like Hilary said, if I reached ONE person, then it was worth it.

http://sarahlaughed.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/on-the-borders-of-diversity-conference-and-student-apathy/

]]> By: Hilary http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347562 Hilary Mon, 19 May 2008 19:32:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347562 Thank you for this! I am one of your students and you know I love love love Bob Dylan. It is frustrating being on the minority side of our society's stance on meat consumption, and feminism too, but I've learned that my actions do make a difference. I've already convinced a few people to give vegetarianism a try or to at least consider--not by preaching and lecturing, but by simple conversations and by supporting my words with my actions. I look forward to getting younger as the years go by and I've already felt a sense of rebirth in my transformation into feminism and vegetarianism. So, thanks for reminding me that my single actions and choices do have a greater effect on society as a whole. Thank you for this! I am one of your students and you know I love love love Bob Dylan. It is frustrating being on the minority side of our society’s stance on meat consumption, and feminism too, but I’ve learned that my actions do make a difference. I’ve already convinced a few people to give vegetarianism a try or to at least consider–not by preaching and lecturing, but by simple conversations and by supporting my words with my actions. I look forward to getting younger as the years go by and I’ve already felt a sense of rebirth in my transformation into feminism and vegetarianism. So, thanks for reminding me that my single actions and choices do have a greater effect on society as a whole.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347504 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 19 May 2008 17:16:22 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347504 Fred, suffering is suffering. We teach our children empathy by getting them to identify with stuffed animals and pets. Am I saying the life of a cow is equivalent to the life of a human? No. Am I saying that the pain they feel is equally intense? Yes, ask any neurologist about how the central nervous system works in vertebrates; ask any ethologist about the capacity of animals to feel fear, anxiety, and despair. Pain is pain is pain. Ingrid Newkirk said, and I stand by this: <em>When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.</em> That ain't hyperbole, that's neurology. Fred, suffering is suffering. We teach our children empathy by getting them to identify with stuffed animals and pets. Am I saying the life of a cow is equivalent to the life of a human? No. Am I saying that the pain they feel is equally intense? Yes, ask any neurologist about how the central nervous system works in vertebrates; ask any ethologist about the capacity of animals to feel fear, anxiety, and despair. Pain is pain is pain. Ingrid Newkirk said, and I stand by this:

When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.

That ain’t hyperbole, that’s neurology.

]]> By: Fred http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347498 Fred Mon, 19 May 2008 17:09:00 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347498 Hugo, Your rhetoric has entered the land of hyperbole when you place the practices of the meat packing industry in the same sentence with the human suffering (murder, rape, and torture) that has occured in Darfur. I think you would be more convincing in making vegan converts if don't try to compare animal suffering with human suffering. Hugo,

Your rhetoric has entered the land of hyperbole when you place the practices of the meat packing industry in the same sentence with the human suffering (murder, rape, and torture) that has occured in Darfur.

I think you would be more convincing in making vegan converts if don’t try to compare animal suffering with human suffering.

]]> By: B http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347490 B Mon, 19 May 2008 17:00:12 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/05/19/hugos-back-pages-of-charity-galas-sophomoric-cynicism-veganism-peta-socks-and-the-very-real-sense-that-the-world-can-be-changed/#comment-347490 <i>I’ve been clear that while I share PETA’s goals, I am often troubled by PETA’s methods, above all the willingness to use women’s bodies to attract attention.</i> I'm always glad to hear animal rights activists admit that. PETA has a wonderful and desireable goal, but terrible, terrible ways of trying to reach it. It is vicious, rude, demeaning, and absolutely counter-productive (how often have you heard, after PETA publically shames someone, people saying things like, "PETA: People Eat Tastey Animals"?). I think part of that fits in with your post's youthful cynicism. When groups like PETA do nothing but bemoan what hasn't been done, it makes it difficult to feel like anything HAS been and can be done. Activism should highlight progress that has been made and make easy steps towards smaller goals (your “further up and further in”). If we're constantly aware of the progress that has been made, we'll feel like individuals CAN do something. Negativity will not get us where we want to be - it only inspires resentment and backlash. I’ve been clear that while I share PETA’s goals, I am often troubled by PETA’s methods, above all the willingness to use women’s bodies to attract attention.

I’m always glad to hear animal rights activists admit that. PETA has a wonderful and desireable goal, but terrible, terrible ways of trying to reach it. It is vicious, rude, demeaning, and absolutely counter-productive (how often have you heard, after PETA publically shames someone, people saying things like, “PETA: People Eat Tastey Animals”?).

I think part of that fits in with your post’s youthful cynicism. When groups like PETA do nothing but bemoan what hasn’t been done, it makes it difficult to feel like anything HAS been and can be done. Activism should highlight progress that has been made and make easy steps towards smaller goals (your “further up and further in”). If we’re constantly aware of the progress that has been made, we’ll feel like individuals CAN do something. Negativity will not get us where we want to be - it only inspires resentment and backlash.

]]>