Which leads to further questions, such as which Woman, which Man?

I consider that question particularly apposite in light of your comment that

young men are much more likely to be locked up in prison… Blame… the prison-industrial complex…

As it happens, having spent seven years (give or take) as a literacy tutor in prisons and jails, I can tell you that in prison, you can see at a glance the racism that permeates North American justice systems. And while plenty of honourable feminists have spoken about the bankruptcy of the criminal justice system and the “solutions” it offers, many mainstream feminists have enthusiastically endorsed the protection the justice system and the police promise. Somehow, the racism in the prison system, like the racism in “Lorna the Jungle Girl”, went unnoticed by them.

I have disability that might have landed me in dire circumstances if confronted by racism. In my childhood, children of colour who presented with ADHD got shunted into programs for the “educable retarded” while us “white” kids got to serve as the lab rabbits on whom neurologists worked out methylphenidate, dexedrine et. al.. Since a label as “educable retarded might have excluded me from most of the opportunities I have had in life, I have reason to rage against the system that blasted the hopes of so many while I escaped.

By your own account, you too have benefited from this kind of privilege, which to me limits your standing to absolve those who have ignored it and remain blind to it.

If there is a “boy crisis”, its roots lie in the decision of a generation of older men to walk away from their responsibility to care for, inspire, and mentor.

Coming from you, Hugo, I find this profoundly offensive. Your own accounts describe mentoring young people in one of the most upper middle class areas and in one of the toniest churches around. And even there, you write about not wanting to pay

…too much attention to coping with the few “problem boys” (chronic troublemakers, overly medicated hyperactives, etcetera).

Let me put this clearly. These “few problem boys” probably turn into the “boys adrift”. If you want this seen as a problem and addressed by other men, fine, but do not dress down the rest of us for our supposed failure, after having gone on record as not wanting to devote time and effort to mentoring kids with problems yourself.

Well everyone’s education is unique to their experiences, mine and yours and that is filtered through who is educating us–their experiences and their flaws. I wish I too would have had a verbier version about males and their sexuality. I too heard that I was responsible and to blame for males and their inappropriate sexualized behaviors towards me. I don’t care to elaborate here. A 13 year-olds understanding of complicated human behaviors and emotions is very different from that of an adult. And emotions are generally refined throughout our lives. Religion played a much larger role than feminism. Some people are very poor communicators and it’s a skill that most people could benefit from cultivating throughout their lives. Many people just react without knowing why they are reacting and they are always going through life responding to all situations without much thought but knee-jerk reactions. I think it difficult for people to focus on the hurt of others, when they are so focused on their own, but are unaware of why they react as they do or the impact on others. Earlier in this thread you used the word schizophrenic female demands. My response to that choice of word, especially schizophrenic, although I know what you were trying to say was negative for another reason and that was because of my own personal experience of coping and dealing with someone who suffers with mental illness. The actual use of that word evoked a powerful and very emotionally painful images and I reacted, but did not write or lash out at you. That, of course, is something you wouldn’t know. Someone who reacted to that word would probably get angry and lash out at you. Someone who was aware of why they were reacting may try to let you know how they feel and not react. We are all flawed individuals, which I think you know. When you respond with your own personal truth and are willing to share, for someone like me, it earns my trust to do the same and that is how I think we learn from each other. In other words, I think it took courage for you to reveal what you have and I respect and appreciate that. How you said it makes it easier for some to look at it from another angle and to empathize. Angry responses don’t accomplish this, at least not for me. And I do think it appropriate too that feminism/feminists could at least consider the collateral damage they can cause.

“SamSeaborn–I really, really hope you’re not saying that I said, or even implied, “your touch is toxic.” That would be right out.”

I did not, I said that’s the message I understood back then, not something you even implied. Sorry if that wasn’t sufficiently clear.

“No one, feminist or not, could possibly write out the “rule book” you seem to have wanted as a teen (I sure hope you don’t want/need it now)”

That may well be so, and as I said I managed to get rid of much of my don’t touch problems - partly through enganging in feminism - but mostly due to the help of girls/women who were not afraid to touch me. To this day I’m usually waiting until a woman will kiss me rather than take the initiative - I’m quite good with words now so I can usually work my way around having to escalate myself. But the fear of a “toxic touch” is still there, on some level.

“Women are not aliens who speak some weird uterus-language you cannot possibly hope to understand. Were you unable to form relationships with men? Then you have (always had!) the skills to form relationships (even ones filled with Sexy Time!) with women.”

No, I never needed a rule book for friendships, not even with girls. With those girls with whom I wanted to get intimate, I wasn’t able to get past the “no touching border” (yes, I was shaking their hands, and occasionally hugging like a friend, but you know what I mean - I wasn’t able to caress them/touch them sexually). I was too afraid they may not want it, scream, run away and that I would be the “monster” I was so afraid to become. My happiest moment as a teenager was holding the hand of a girl I loved - she took mine - and still I felt I had to ensure I would not let the monster loose while we were sitting there watching the sunset. When I first made out, of course, she kissed me, I wouldn’t have thought of risking to “sexually harass” her by attempting a kiss. At some point she asked me if something was wrong with her breasts since I would not touch them. I said I wasn’t sure that would be ok? So she took my hand and said “someone screwed you badly.” Wise girl.

“The “code” that you rough out in your comment is really just a verbier version of what I wrote…”

Well, I would have needed a much verbier version of what you wrote. I would have needed someone who taught me to say “yes” to my own sexuality, to embrace its positive potential, not just feed me statistics and ideology about how awful men are.

“were given some stink-o info from a feminist (or a “feminist”), but it seems to me that you’ve made it your hobby-horse, rather than realizing that, wherever it came from, it was stink-o, you’re better off ditching it”

Well, as I said, that wasn’t easy in my case. It took a couple of years, “stink-o feminism” reacted badly with my OCD and became a major psychological problem.

“but you have to–really, this is the only thing I’d ever say you HAVE TO do–give up the idea that there is a single (different, weird, unnatural) set of rules for dealing with Women.”

Again, I never had problems *dealing* with women - except for things that involved physical interaction, like physical teasing when you’re flirting. Softly hitting each other, that kind of thing. Mostly I had problems becoming *sexual* with women because I believed that my sexuality is doing something to them that I would not want to do to them. Believe me, I know now I have alienated/confused/disappointed more than one woman by *not* becoming sexual when it would have been appropriate.

No one, feminist or not, could possibly write out the “rule book” you seem to have wanted as a teen (I sure hope you don’t want/need it now), partly because there’s absolutely NO way to account for every possibility, let alone every individual woman’s response to every possibility.

Do you feel you need a rule book to get to know men? I know sexuality makes things more fraught, but c’mon now. Making friendships and making romantic relationships are, in my experience very similar enterprises, and both rely on mutual respect, a reasonable amount of risk-taking, and lots of communication. Women are not aliens who speak some weird uterus-language you cannot possibly hope to understand. Were you unable to form relationships with men? Then you have (always had!) the skills to form relationships (even ones filled with Sexy Time!) with women.

The “code” that you rough out in your comment is really just a verbier version of what I wrote You say “you’re not responsible for her thinking,” which is just another way of acknowledging that she’s an individual (”a fellow human being”) who can make her own choices. Et cetera… it follows logically, without the need for the play-by-play of “if she does X, do Y” instructions.

I don’t know your history, and maybe you were given some stink-o info from a feminist (or a “feminist”), but it seems to me that you’ve made it your hobby-horse, rather than realizing that, wherever it came from, it was stink-o, you’re better off ditching it, and that feminism does have something (something? lots of things!) to offer you and all men, but you have to–really, this is the only thing I’d ever say you HAVE TO do–give up the idea that there is a single (different, weird, unnatural) set of rules for dealing with Women. To do less is to Other them forever.

It wasn’t straw-feminism, I said “IF feminism’s out to give . . ” I certainly think that feminism done properly wouldn’t concede that. But there have been some who have been more than willing to not follow the logic to its proper conclusion, and it is that which I disagree with.

I’m interested in the disagreeing with truth. Certainly some things are true in more contexts than others, but the context is what determines truth. I certainly don’t believe in capital T “Truth,” in the static sense, if that’s what you’re disagreeing with. But to argue that things can’t be argued true or false defeats the purpose of having a discussion to begin with.