Comments on: The Pill, autonomy, male responsibility, and the virtues of body sovereignty http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:40:30 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Ted Butler http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-367023 Ted Butler Wed, 04 Jun 2008 06:49:41 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-367023 Lisa, Thanks for backing me up on the fact that sex education is very given to a high percentage of teenagers and children for that matter. The first time I was taught formally about sex was in 6th grade at a private christian school (wierd i know) and I learned about as much about sex as a 12 year old could and I thought it was very beneficial. Then almost every year til I graduated from highschool we were given all kinds of discussions about having safe sex and all the dangers of STD's, aids, and of course pregnancy. In college we had access to free STD check ups and all the free condoms we could ever want. Sex education was not as prevelent in class discussions, but was very openly talked about and discussed among the administration and the dorm residence, which I found to be very beneficial. I guess I can credit that to also being from the bay area, I dont know what kind of sex education or lack of sex education faith got in her hick town in the midwest. hahahah I'm only kidding Faith I hope you dont get offended because it was merely a joke and I have really no idea where you came from. I suppose faith's comment is extraordinarily important, because if you did not receive any sex ed. then teenagers where you grew are also not getting those important life lessons. This just goes to show that America needs to step up on its role in the lives of teenagers and their sex lives. Lisa,
Thanks for backing me up on the fact that sex education is very given to a high percentage of teenagers and children for that matter. The first time I was taught formally about sex was in 6th grade at a private christian school (wierd i know) and I learned about as much about sex as a 12 year old could and I thought it was very beneficial. Then almost every year til I graduated from highschool we were given all kinds of discussions about having safe sex and all the dangers of STD’s, aids, and of course pregnancy. In college we had access to free STD check ups and all the free condoms we could ever want. Sex education was not as prevelent in class discussions, but was very openly talked about and discussed among the administration and the dorm residence, which I found to be very beneficial.

I guess I can credit that to also being from the bay area, I dont know what kind of sex education or lack of sex education faith got in her hick town in the midwest. hahahah I’m only kidding Faith I hope you dont get offended because it was merely a joke and I have really no idea where you came from.

I suppose faith’s comment is extraordinarily important, because if you did not receive any sex ed. then teenagers where you grew are also not getting those important life lessons. This just goes to show that America needs to step up on its role in the lives of teenagers and their sex lives.

]]> By: Karen http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366878 Karen Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:28:39 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366878 It's always amazing to me the casual and flippant attitude that some people demonstrate with regard to their health and also the health of others. I guess it's just another variation of the "It won't happen to me," approach to life. I do agree with B's observations that plenty of people shrug off any variety of symptoms because they don't want to be bothered with going to the doctor and figure it will pass. Unfortunately for many this attitude has sad consequences. I don't like saying that I've encountered so many people who regret not taking their health more seriously. I wish it were the opposite. Just about everyone I knew had some type of STD or other sexually transmitted disease. I also know people who died from AIDS--watching what that disease does to people, their deaths and the toll it took on their relatives and was emotionally painful. I don't get it, but if they want to take risks with their own life, it is their choice and the outcome their responsibility. I just don't like it when they extend the same disrespect towards others. It’s always amazing to me the casual and flippant attitude that some people demonstrate with regard to their health and also the health of others. I guess it’s just another variation of the “It won’t happen to me,” approach to life. I do agree with B’s observations that plenty of people shrug off any variety of symptoms because they don’t want to be bothered with going to the doctor and figure it will pass. Unfortunately for many this attitude has sad consequences. I don’t like saying that I’ve encountered so many people who regret not taking their health more seriously. I wish it were the opposite. Just about everyone I knew had some type of STD or other sexually transmitted disease. I also know people who died from AIDS–watching what that disease does to people, their deaths and the toll it took on their relatives and was emotionally painful. I don’t get it, but if they want to take risks with their own life, it is their choice and the outcome their responsibility. I just don’t like it when they extend the same disrespect towards others.

]]> By: B http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366625 B Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:04:06 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366625 And, again, some people <i>just don't know that they have an STD</i>. They can be as honest as can be, and then discover later that they passed something on to you they didn't realize they had. Not every STD is as obvious as a pussing sore, and plenty of people shrug off any variety of symptoms because they don't want to be bothered with going to the doctor and figure that whatever it is will pass. And, again, some people just don’t know that they have an STD. They can be as honest as can be, and then discover later that they passed something on to you they didn’t realize they had. Not every STD is as obvious as a pussing sore, and plenty of people shrug off any variety of symptoms because they don’t want to be bothered with going to the doctor and figure that whatever it is will pass.

]]> By: Lisa http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366615 Lisa Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:47:08 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366615 Faith, in the part of the USA that I'm from there is, in fact, relentless sex education. It started when we were 10, with free pads and lots of diagrams, and there was a little "health" section in science class since then every year until we were 16. I'm perfectly willing to believe that living on the outskirts of San Francisco I got a bit more sex ed than people in the midwest, of course. But the US is a big place. I'm a bit concerned about calls to have every teenage girl on the Pill. I'm in the process of going off it, due to concerns about it "messing up my body chemistry". These are not environmentalist concerns, they are health concerns - especially with all the growing evidence about the influence of hormone levels on womens' decisions, I don't want to be walking around with my body perpetually convinced that I'm pregnant. It seems irresponsible to impose years of constant medication on teens just because they might have sex. Of course, it's worse to deny it to them, but there are concerns on both sides. Faith, in the part of the USA that I’m from there is, in fact, relentless sex education. It started when we were 10, with free pads and lots of diagrams, and there was a little “health” section in science class since then every year until we were 16. I’m perfectly willing to believe that living on the outskirts of San Francisco I got a bit more sex ed than people in the midwest, of course. But the US is a big place.

I’m a bit concerned about calls to have every teenage girl on the Pill. I’m in the process of going off it, due to concerns about it “messing up my body chemistry”. These are not environmentalist concerns, they are health concerns - especially with all the growing evidence about the influence of hormone levels on womens’ decisions, I don’t want to be walking around with my body perpetually convinced that I’m pregnant. It seems irresponsible to impose years of constant medication on teens just because they might have sex. Of course, it’s worse to deny it to them, but there are concerns on both sides.

]]> By: Faith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366548 Faith Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:56:07 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366548 "The Chief didn’t say that it took three drinks to get to know someone; he said that if you do MORE THAN THAT, you can get to know someone pretty well. Well enough to guess whether or not they know/are truthful about their STD status? Obviously, that’s a gauge we all have to take for ourselves." That's basically what he said. You can't really get to know someone well enough to know if they are being truly honest with you or not until you've known someone for a considerable amount of time - like a few months at the very least. A few hours in a bar or even a few days time conversing with someone is hardly adequate enough time to risk contracting your death because they seem like a nice clean honest person. If Chief, or you, wish to play russian roulette with your health and very life, so be it. But don't kid yourself or anyone else that that is exactly what you are doing. “The Chief didn’t say that it took three drinks to get to know someone; he said that if you do MORE THAN THAT, you can get to know someone pretty well. Well enough to guess whether or not they know/are truthful about their STD status? Obviously, that’s a gauge we all have to take for ourselves.”

That’s basically what he said. You can’t really get to know someone well enough to know if they are being truly honest with you or not until you’ve known someone for a considerable amount of time - like a few months at the very least. A few hours in a bar or even a few days time conversing with someone is hardly adequate enough time to risk contracting your death because they seem like a nice clean honest person. If Chief, or you, wish to play russian roulette with your health and very life, so be it. But don’t kid yourself or anyone else that that is exactly what you are doing.

]]> By: kate h http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366499 kate h Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:17:44 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366499 Regardless of a heterosexual man's chance of contracting HIV from a heterosexual woman, a heterosexual man's chance of contracting syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, etc. still exits, and his chances of passing on anything he has (whether he know it or not- men are often asymptomatic while still carrying the disease) is much higher. If Chief hasn't been tested for STDs since his last condom-free encounter, he doesn't know for a fact that he is STD free. Regardless of a heterosexual man’s chance of contracting HIV from a heterosexual woman, a heterosexual man’s chance of contracting syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, etc. still exits, and his chances of passing on anything he has (whether he know it or not- men are often asymptomatic while still carrying the disease) is much higher. If Chief hasn’t been tested for STDs since his last condom-free encounter, he doesn’t know for a fact that he is STD free.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366415 Hugo Schwyzer Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:31:32 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366415 I don't think I disagree with anything you've said, Karen: equal responsibility for both sexes, greater weight to the pregnancy-prevention strategy favored by the woman. Those aren't mutually exclusive positions. I don’t think I disagree with anything you’ve said, Karen: equal responsibility for both sexes, greater weight to the pregnancy-prevention strategy favored by the woman. Those aren’t mutually exclusive positions.

]]> By: Karen Rayne http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366399 Karen Rayne Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:22:10 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366399 Thanks for the kudos, Hugo, I like your blog too. :) But I will continue to disagree with your point in this post. I'm going to try to clarify more than in my previous comment: Both parties (or all parties) involved in a sexual encounter are responsible for any procreation or illness that comes as a result of sexual intercourse. Agreed that women pay much higher dues (and potentially all of the dues) if she gets pregnant. However, if a woman does not choose to request a condom, or even says she does not want the man to use a condom, it is still the man's responsibility to require a condom. In fact, I would say that both parties are "damn straight entitled to make either one of those a precondition for intercourse." Period. Regardless of gender. Thanks for the kudos, Hugo, I like your blog too. :)

But I will continue to disagree with your point in this post. I’m going to try to clarify more than in my previous comment:

Both parties (or all parties) involved in a sexual encounter are responsible for any procreation or illness that comes as a result of sexual intercourse. Agreed that women pay much higher dues (and potentially all of the dues) if she gets pregnant.

However, if a woman does not choose to request a condom, or even says she does not want the man to use a condom, it is still the man’s responsibility to require a condom.

In fact, I would say that both parties are “damn straight entitled to make either one of those a precondition for intercourse.” Period. Regardless of gender.

]]> By: Robert http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366350 Robert Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:56:45 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-366350 The Chief didn't say that it took three drinks to get to know someone; he said that if you do MORE THAN THAT, you can get to know someone pretty well. Well enough to guess whether or not they know/are truthful about their STD status? Obviously, that's a gauge we all have to take for ourselves. In addition, although it isn't popular to say it, the odds of a heterosexual man getting HIV from unprotected PIV sex with random people is, in fact, pretty low. It's not that you can't get it or that the disease doesn't propagate independently of the moral virtue of its hosts; it's simply the demographics of who has it, and the mechanics of its transmission. I wouldn't personally take the chance, but it's the hazard equivalent of not wearing your seatbelt on a 3-mile trip to the grocery store, not the equivalent of launching yourself from a cannon at a brick wall: low chance of outcome, terrible outcome, vs. high chance of outcome, terrible outcome. The Chief didn’t say that it took three drinks to get to know someone; he said that if you do MORE THAN THAT, you can get to know someone pretty well. Well enough to guess whether or not they know/are truthful about their STD status? Obviously, that’s a gauge we all have to take for ourselves.

In addition, although it isn’t popular to say it, the odds of a heterosexual man getting HIV from unprotected PIV sex with random people is, in fact, pretty low. It’s not that you can’t get it or that the disease doesn’t propagate independently of the moral virtue of its hosts; it’s simply the demographics of who has it, and the mechanics of its transmission. I wouldn’t personally take the chance, but it’s the hazard equivalent of not wearing your seatbelt on a 3-mile trip to the grocery store, not the equivalent of launching yourself from a cannon at a brick wall: low chance of outcome, terrible outcome, vs. high chance of outcome, terrible outcome.

]]> By: Faith http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-365880 Faith Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:43:16 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/02/the-pill-autonomy-male-responsibility-and-the-virtues-of-body-sovereignty/#comment-365880 "I would have to say since teenagers are especially stupid, regardless of the relentless education they get petaining to safe sex and the proper use of condoms, that girls should be on “the pill” only to ensure that spontaniety doesn’t bring them a 3rd." Where are teenagers getting relentless education regarding safe sex and the proper use of condoms? Unless their parents are educating their kids, sex education in the USA barely exists. Sex education in this country currently amounts to telling kids to remain abstinent until marriage. They are not taught about safe sex and proper condom use at all in most places. “I would have to say since teenagers are especially stupid, regardless of the relentless education they get petaining to safe sex and the proper use of condoms, that girls should be on “the pill” only to ensure that spontaniety doesn’t bring them a 3rd.”

Where are teenagers getting relentless education regarding safe sex and the proper use of condoms? Unless their parents are educating their kids, sex education in the USA barely exists. Sex education in this country currently amounts to telling kids to remain abstinent until marriage. They are not taught about safe sex and proper condom use at all in most places.

]]>