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	<title>Comments on: Divorce, gay marriage, and disillusionment</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/</link>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 00:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384948</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384948</guid>
		<description>Hugo. If you saw damage from a SSM, would you allow yourself to be aware of it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo. If you saw damage from a SSM, would you allow yourself to be aware of it?</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384819</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384819</guid>
		<description>Paul's teaching comes in the form of letters to particular congregations, often containing responses to particular questions that the congregations asked.  For example, the bit about how men and women should wear their hair is in the middle of 1 Corinthians, a letter jam packed with responses to questions on a whole bunch of different topics, with two pieces of advice that are actually contradictory if you take each as a general rule.  (That would be the famous "tell the woman not to talk in church" advice, which contradicts the "women should wear head coverings when they prophesy" advice.)  So, the question of context automatically arises - what context was this addressing, what's particular to a congregation's situation, and what might apply more broadly, etc.  There's also the matter that more liberal Christians may see Paul as Just Another Guy who had access to Jesus' teaching at a relatively small remove, while others see Paul as inerrantly inspired by God.

So, for example, the passage about telling the women not to talk in church gets regularly interpreted as applying to a particular situation in the unruly Corinthian congregation, where women were interrupting a service (and given that the &lt;em&gt;same darn epistle&lt;/em&gt; says that women can prophesy publically, I think the "specific context" interpretation has the better case here).  While those people who *want* women to shut up and never, never teach men have to explain away the passage where women prophesy, and the fact that Paul (both in his letters and in the historical accounts in Acts) acknowledges the leadership of certain women, who sometimes (e.g. Priscilla) teach men.  Some interpretation of things as specific to a context is inherent to the process.

Whether it's legit to interpret the prohibition on divorce that way is trickier - it's repeated in two gospels and one early epistle, in terms that don't suggest a lot of wiggle room.  And at the same time the cultural context of marriage, and the likely consequences of divorce, have changed a lot over the centuries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul&#8217;s teaching comes in the form of letters to particular congregations, often containing responses to particular questions that the congregations asked.  For example, the bit about how men and women should wear their hair is in the middle of 1 Corinthians, a letter jam packed with responses to questions on a whole bunch of different topics, with two pieces of advice that are actually contradictory if you take each as a general rule.  (That would be the famous &#8220;tell the woman not to talk in church&#8221; advice, which contradicts the &#8220;women should wear head coverings when they prophesy&#8221; advice.)  So, the question of context automatically arises - what context was this addressing, what&#8217;s particular to a congregation&#8217;s situation, and what might apply more broadly, etc.  There&#8217;s also the matter that more liberal Christians may see Paul as Just Another Guy who had access to Jesus&#8217; teaching at a relatively small remove, while others see Paul as inerrantly inspired by God.</p>
<p>So, for example, the passage about telling the women not to talk in church gets regularly interpreted as applying to a particular situation in the unruly Corinthian congregation, where women were interrupting a service (and given that the <em>same darn epistle</em> says that women can prophesy publically, I think the &#8220;specific context&#8221; interpretation has the better case here).  While those people who *want* women to shut up and never, never teach men have to explain away the passage where women prophesy, and the fact that Paul (both in his letters and in the historical accounts in Acts) acknowledges the leadership of certain women, who sometimes (e.g. Priscilla) teach men.  Some interpretation of things as specific to a context is inherent to the process.</p>
<p>Whether it&#8217;s legit to interpret the prohibition on divorce that way is trickier - it&#8217;s repeated in two gospels and one early epistle, in terms that don&#8217;t suggest a lot of wiggle room.  And at the same time the cultural context of marriage, and the likely consequences of divorce, have changed a lot over the centuries.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384796</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384796</guid>
		<description>It's not an assumption, but rather a process.  Traditional Protestant hermeneutic works on the so-called Wesleyan Quadrilateral (named, of course, for the great Methodist evangelical):

Reason, Experience, Scripture, Tradition.  (REST).  We use all four to inform an understanding of God's call to us; Scripture is one post in that quad, but reason and experience are vital as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not an assumption, but rather a process.  Traditional Protestant hermeneutic works on the so-called Wesleyan Quadrilateral (named, of course, for the great Methodist evangelical):</p>
<p>Reason, Experience, Scripture, Tradition.  (REST).  We use all four to inform an understanding of God&#8217;s call to us; Scripture is one post in that quad, but reason and experience are vital as well.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384363</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:17:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-384363</guid>
		<description>Why assume it no longer applies? I understand that one learns Christian theology, but I'm not getting basis to outright reject some of Jesus's or Paul's teachings (no divorcing your wife unless she sleeps with another man).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why assume it no longer applies? I understand that one learns Christian theology, but I&#8217;m not getting basis to outright reject some of Jesus&#8217;s or Paul&#8217;s teachings (no divorcing your wife unless she sleeps with another man).</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-383819</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-383819</guid>
		<description>Given that most cultures have moved so far away from what marriage traditionally was (the trade of a woman between father and husband so that both families could improve economically), I can never really understand the idea that gay marriage threatens the institution. By turning marriage into a love match in which both partners enter voluntarily, we've already radically changed the institution to something more humane. And we can do it again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that most cultures have moved so far away from what marriage traditionally was (the trade of a woman between father and husband so that both families could improve economically), I can never really understand the idea that gay marriage threatens the institution. By turning marriage into a love match in which both partners enter voluntarily, we&#8217;ve already radically changed the institution to something more humane. And we can do it again.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-383619</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-383619</guid>
		<description>Why the condemnation, or why do we assume it no longer applies?

Assuming that you ask the latter, most Christians interpret Paul's letters as speaking on multiple levels -- some of what he writes is specific to his audience, some of it is eternally applicable.  We send people to seminary to learn the hermeneutic techniques for distinguishing the two.   And then we argue about it, and have regualr schisms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why the condemnation, or why do we assume it no longer applies?</p>
<p>Assuming that you ask the latter, most Christians interpret Paul&#8217;s letters as speaking on multiple levels &#8212; some of what he writes is specific to his audience, some of it is eternally applicable.  We send people to seminary to learn the hermeneutic techniques for distinguishing the two.   And then we argue about it, and have regualr schisms.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-383605</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-383605</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Paul condemns long hair on men, and we take it as a cultural statement that no longer applies&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Paul condemns long hair on men, and we take it as a cultural statement that no longer applies</p></blockquote>
<p>Why?</p>
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		<title>By: kate h</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-382665</link>
		<dc:creator>kate h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 01:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-382665</guid>
		<description>My parents got divorced when I was 7.  It was a huge adjustment, and my older brother (13 at the time) was hugely influenced by the event.  I have told people that I've been divorced once, and I don't care to repeat the experience.  I lived with my husband for a year before we got married, in large part because of a comment my mother made about her marriage to my father.  She said that within 6 weeks of getting married, she knew she had made a horrible mistake.  But divorce was not something people she knew did, so she didn't consider it initially.  But two kids and 17 years later, she initiated a divorce.

It is clear to me that the divorce improved my mother's life, and probably my life, but may have harmed my brother.  Of course, even at  7 I remember seeing my father shove my mother into a wall, and at 13 my brother remembers that life was perfect before my mother betrayed my father by divorcing him.  I've never been able to figure out how my brother missed the anger and the violence that I could clearly see.  My dad never slapped or punched my mother, but he did shove on occasion, and he yelled a lot.  All the time.  He's 6'4" tall, and big and loud.  He scared the crap out of me on occasion.

Having met gay people, gotten to know some, and call some friends, I've never found a way that gay marriage has negatively impacted me, or ultimately my marriage.  Well, except for the guilt I feel that my committed relationship passes muster to be called marriage, and theirs does not.  I am an atheist, who prays to the universe that someday a charismatic political figure will rise up on a platform that says, " I do not have 'family values'.  I value families in every form.  That two or more people unite in a loving, supportive relationship to care for each other is an amazing thing, and worthy of the highest respect."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My parents got divorced when I was 7.  It was a huge adjustment, and my older brother (13 at the time) was hugely influenced by the event.  I have told people that I&#8217;ve been divorced once, and I don&#8217;t care to repeat the experience.  I lived with my husband for a year before we got married, in large part because of a comment my mother made about her marriage to my father.  She said that within 6 weeks of getting married, she knew she had made a horrible mistake.  But divorce was not something people she knew did, so she didn&#8217;t consider it initially.  But two kids and 17 years later, she initiated a divorce.</p>
<p>It is clear to me that the divorce improved my mother&#8217;s life, and probably my life, but may have harmed my brother.  Of course, even at  7 I remember seeing my father shove my mother into a wall, and at 13 my brother remembers that life was perfect before my mother betrayed my father by divorcing him.  I&#8217;ve never been able to figure out how my brother missed the anger and the violence that I could clearly see.  My dad never slapped or punched my mother, but he did shove on occasion, and he yelled a lot.  All the time.  He&#8217;s 6&#8242;4&#8243; tall, and big and loud.  He scared the crap out of me on occasion.</p>
<p>Having met gay people, gotten to know some, and call some friends, I&#8217;ve never found a way that gay marriage has negatively impacted me, or ultimately my marriage.  Well, except for the guilt I feel that my committed relationship passes muster to be called marriage, and theirs does not.  I am an atheist, who prays to the universe that someday a charismatic political figure will rise up on a platform that says, &#8221; I do not have &#8216;family values&#8217;.  I value families in every form.  That two or more people unite in a loving, supportive relationship to care for each other is an amazing thing, and worthy of the highest respect.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-382422</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-382422</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And of course, I’m thinking about the fascinating conservative argument that allowing gays and lesbians to marry is somehow bad for marriage as an institution.&lt;/i&gt;

That's actually a pretty easy argument to understand, so long as you accept the caveat that homosexuals are inherently evil because they consciously choose to debase themselves in unholy practices.  Of course, that caveat is kind of a big jagged pill...

...unless you assiduously maintain what I like to call the "fundie bubble."  Basically, you sequester yourself from anyone who could challenge your worldview*, whether by argument or simple existence.  This, obviously, is why religious conservatives have such a hard-on for homeschooling and religious private schools/universities; it's much easier to keep kids' thoughts in line if you never let them outside, so to speak, to see what they're missing and what their peers are lying about.

*One of the great ironies in life is in some of the most outspoken (or at least visible) evangelicals in the country utterly refusing to be anywhere near people who allegedly need witnessing, preferring to remain in the happy social homogeneity of their megachurches (or what have they).  Odd, to say the least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And of course, I’m thinking about the fascinating conservative argument that allowing gays and lesbians to marry is somehow bad for marriage as an institution.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s actually a pretty easy argument to understand, so long as you accept the caveat that homosexuals are inherently evil because they consciously choose to debase themselves in unholy practices.  Of course, that caveat is kind of a big jagged pill&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;unless you assiduously maintain what I like to call the &#8220;fundie bubble.&#8221;  Basically, you sequester yourself from anyone who could challenge your worldview*, whether by argument or simple existence.  This, obviously, is why religious conservatives have such a hard-on for homeschooling and religious private schools/universities; it&#8217;s much easier to keep kids&#8217; thoughts in line if you never let them outside, so to speak, to see what they&#8217;re missing and what their peers are lying about.</p>
<p>*One of the great ironies in life is in some of the most outspoken (or at least visible) evangelicals in the country utterly refusing to be anywhere near people who allegedly need witnessing, preferring to remain in the happy social homogeneity of their megachurches (or what have they).  Odd, to say the least.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Frug</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-380980</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Frug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/13/divorce-gay-marriage-and-disillusionment/#comment-380980</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  Well, interesting that that's the reason.  It makes sense.

(And, of course, whatever the reasoning, I'm glad churches apply it, since I think that the no-divorce rule causes a lot of hardship and harm... for that matter, my impression is that a lot of Catholics get around it with annulments that serve as  de facto divorces.)


Somewhat parallel arguments about homosexuality are made by Rabbi Steve Greenberg in his book &lt;i&gt;Wrestling with God and Man&lt;/i&gt;, i.e. that the prohibition in Leviticus had to do with what homosexuality meant &lt;i&gt;then&lt;/i&gt;, not an absolute.  (He makes other arguments too; all interesting, IMO.)  Greenberg is an openly gay, Orthodox rabbi (not accepted as the later by many other Orthodox rabbis, though).  He's great.  If you don't know his work it might interest you.

SF</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  Well, interesting that that&#8217;s the reason.  It makes sense.</p>
<p>(And, of course, whatever the reasoning, I&#8217;m glad churches apply it, since I think that the no-divorce rule causes a lot of hardship and harm&#8230; for that matter, my impression is that a lot of Catholics get around it with annulments that serve as  de facto divorces.)</p>
<p>Somewhat parallel arguments about homosexuality are made by Rabbi Steve Greenberg in his book <i>Wrestling with God and Man</i>, i.e. that the prohibition in Leviticus had to do with what homosexuality meant <i>then</i>, not an absolute.  (He makes other arguments too; all interesting, IMO.)  Greenberg is an openly gay, Orthodox rabbi (not accepted as the later by many other Orthodox rabbis, though).  He&#8217;s great.  If you don&#8217;t know his work it might interest you.</p>
<p>SF</p>
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