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	<title>Comments on: Feminism, shame, and boys: responding (again) to Kathleen Parker and KJ Lopez</title>
	<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: bmmg39</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389393</link>
		<dc:creator>bmmg39</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389393</guid>
		<description>1. "[The word 'menz'] refers, b, to a habit of thread-hijacking, in which MRAs come into feminist discussions to talk, invariably, about how “men suffer too”. It’s a derailing tactic and thus fair game to lampoon. It doesn’t mean men don’t have legitimate concerns, it just means that it’s not fair to insert those concerns into a completely different discussion."

K, but it seems that one (I'm not singling you out here) can make that point without a deliberate non-word that sends that very message (that another's concerns aren't legitimate).

2. Nav: "On innocence, I would seriously protest against the notion that I was still innocent when I lost my virginity. I was out of college, for Christ’s sake!"

Nav, one of the best compliments I've ever received is that I'm an innocent, but that "innocent isn't the same as naïve."

3. "When I see a pregnant teen, I hope that she has a good support network."

So do I. I'm tired of liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, pro-choicers and pro-lifers, all having a contest to see who can be the meanest to teen moms (and dads). That's the very stigma that causes more babies to be killed (whether in the pre-natal or post-natal stage of development). There are no "human mistakes," and teen pregnancy should be billed not as a dead end, but rather as a detour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. &#8220;[The word &#8216;menz&#8217;] refers, b, to a habit of thread-hijacking, in which MRAs come into feminist discussions to talk, invariably, about how “men suffer too”. It’s a derailing tactic and thus fair game to lampoon. It doesn’t mean men don’t have legitimate concerns, it just means that it’s not fair to insert those concerns into a completely different discussion.&#8221;</p>
<p>K, but it seems that one (I&#8217;m not singling you out here) can make that point without a deliberate non-word that sends that very message (that another&#8217;s concerns aren&#8217;t legitimate).</p>
<p>2. Nav: &#8220;On innocence, I would seriously protest against the notion that I was still innocent when I lost my virginity. I was out of college, for Christ’s sake!&#8221;</p>
<p>Nav, one of the best compliments I&#8217;ve ever received is that I&#8217;m an innocent, but that &#8220;innocent isn&#8217;t the same as naïve.&#8221;</p>
<p>3. &#8220;When I see a pregnant teen, I hope that she has a good support network.&#8221;</p>
<p>So do I. I&#8217;m tired of liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, pro-choicers and pro-lifers, all having a contest to see who can be the meanest to teen moms (and dads). That&#8217;s the very stigma that causes more babies to be killed (whether in the pre-natal or post-natal stage of development). There are no &#8220;human mistakes,&#8221; and teen pregnancy should be billed not as a dead end, but rather as a detour.</p>
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		<title>By: kate h</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389102</link>
		<dc:creator>kate h</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389102</guid>
		<description>Shaming unwed mothers is s continuation of the misogynistic social belief that females should not enjoy and have sex.  A girl who gets pregnant has no choice available that does not lead to social shaming - therefore societal shame cannot steer her to a socially 'correct' option.  Once you are unwed and pregnant, you are socially declared shameful.  Have an abortion?  Baby Killer!  Have the baby and keep it? Irresponsible slut!  Have the baby and give it away? Irresponsible unfeeling slut!  Get married, then have the baby? Slut who got lucky.  

When I see a pregnant teen, I hope that she has a good support network.  I wonder what set of life circumstances lead her to her current state - ignorance? Purposeful choice? Bad luck?  When I was pregnant, my husband and I went through a 6 week pregnancy and childbirth education class offered by the hospital where I chose to deliver.  There was a young girl, somewhere between 14 and 16, who attended the classes with a girlfriend.  I overheard her speaking with the instructor the first night about getting a court document signed that proved she had attended the class.  I don't know what her circumstances were, but I assumed that they were not ideal.  In a room full of fellow pregnant women, she never relaxed, she never participated, she never spoke, and she never seemed to be excited by having a baby.  I sincerely hope she was cared for at home and by her friends and family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shaming unwed mothers is s continuation of the misogynistic social belief that females should not enjoy and have sex.  A girl who gets pregnant has no choice available that does not lead to social shaming - therefore societal shame cannot steer her to a socially &#8216;correct&#8217; option.  Once you are unwed and pregnant, you are socially declared shameful.  Have an abortion?  Baby Killer!  Have the baby and keep it? Irresponsible slut!  Have the baby and give it away? Irresponsible unfeeling slut!  Get married, then have the baby? Slut who got lucky.  </p>
<p>When I see a pregnant teen, I hope that she has a good support network.  I wonder what set of life circumstances lead her to her current state - ignorance? Purposeful choice? Bad luck?  When I was pregnant, my husband and I went through a 6 week pregnancy and childbirth education class offered by the hospital where I chose to deliver.  There was a young girl, somewhere between 14 and 16, who attended the classes with a girlfriend.  I overheard her speaking with the instructor the first night about getting a court document signed that proved she had attended the class.  I don&#8217;t know what her circumstances were, but I assumed that they were not ideal.  In a room full of fellow pregnant women, she never relaxed, she never participated, she never spoke, and she never seemed to be excited by having a baby.  I sincerely hope she was cared for at home and by her friends and family.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389026</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389026</guid>
		<description>Yes, once a woman has made a decision, the support should be unconditional.  The argument against teen pregnancy needs to be couched not in terms of shame, but in terms of lost opportunities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, once a woman has made a decision, the support should be unconditional.  The argument against teen pregnancy needs to be couched not in terms of shame, but in terms of lost opportunities.</p>
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		<title>By: Sweating Through Fog</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389021</link>
		<dc:creator>Sweating Through Fog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389021</guid>
		<description>Hugo,

"To suggest that we ought to return to shaming unwed mothers (but not, apparently, unwed fathers) as an instrument for protecting the young is, frankly, an obscene idea."

I have lots of sympathy and understanding for single mothers, and for young people that have to deal with a pregnancy that they didn't plan.  I surely don't want to go back to the way things used to be.

But on the other hand, I'm very unwilling to say that the choice to be a mother is always, and under all circumstance, a choice that must never be criticized in any way. I'm very disturbed by this recent story of the group of high school girls and their "pregnancy pact" (please, let it be a hoax!)

In your view, does the prohibition on shaming mean that unconditional support must be given?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo,</p>
<p>&#8220;To suggest that we ought to return to shaming unwed mothers (but not, apparently, unwed fathers) as an instrument for protecting the young is, frankly, an obscene idea.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have lots of sympathy and understanding for single mothers, and for young people that have to deal with a pregnancy that they didn&#8217;t plan.  I surely don&#8217;t want to go back to the way things used to be.</p>
<p>But on the other hand, I&#8217;m very unwilling to say that the choice to be a mother is always, and under all circumstance, a choice that must never be criticized in any way. I&#8217;m very disturbed by this recent story of the group of high school girls and their &#8220;pregnancy pact&#8221; (please, let it be a hoax!)</p>
<p>In your view, does the prohibition on shaming mean that unconditional support must be given?</p>
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		<title>By: Nav</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389003</link>
		<dc:creator>Nav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-389003</guid>
		<description>On innocence, I would seriously protest against the notion that I was still innocent when I lost my virginity.  I was out of college, for Christ's sake!  I think I lost my innocence around the time I learned what blow jobs were from two girls in my seventh grade homeroom who were talking about doing it with their ninth grade boyfriends.  I think that's when I heard shattering glass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On innocence, I would seriously protest against the notion that I was still innocent when I lost my virginity.  I was out of college, for Christ&#8217;s sake!  I think I lost my innocence around the time I learned what blow jobs were from two girls in my seventh grade homeroom who were talking about doing it with their ninth grade boyfriends.  I think that&#8217;s when I heard shattering glass.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-388134</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-388134</guid>
		<description>Hugo, 

Wow! I agree that this line in the NRO piece (shame attached to unwed motherhood) is reprehensible. 

Parker: It kept our knees together. Importantly, it allowed girls to hang onto their innocence a little longer until they really were women.

What is she thinking!!! When I read stuff like that it's difficult to give anything she says much credibility. I thought Bradshaw also discussed healthy shame. I don't know how I feel about public shaming, because I do know that abuse is generally conducted secretly and not out in the open. I doubt my mother would agree with her views about our education system serving girls better. According to her I suffered attention deficit, climbed trees and was generally quite a handful. I generally agree with your post...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugo, </p>
<p>Wow! I agree that this line in the NRO piece (shame attached to unwed motherhood) is reprehensible. </p>
<p>Parker: It kept our knees together. Importantly, it allowed girls to hang onto their innocence a little longer until they really were women.</p>
<p>What is she thinking!!! When I read stuff like that it&#8217;s difficult to give anything she says much credibility. I thought Bradshaw also discussed healthy shame. I don&#8217;t know how I feel about public shaming, because I do know that abuse is generally conducted secretly and not out in the open. I doubt my mother would agree with her views about our education system serving girls better. According to her I suffered attention deficit, climbed trees and was generally quite a handful. I generally agree with your post&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-388130</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-388130</guid>
		<description>Well to be fair, given that the post was prompted, in part, by a book recently published by one of the principal subjects entitled "Save the Males" (or should that be "Save the Malez"?) and contained discussions, among other things, male experiences with education and sexuality, the menz are not entirely irrelevant or tangential to the discussion.

Sua sponte voluntarism - Sua sponte: Latin: "Of one's own accord", spontaneous, done without outside prompting or inducement.  Voluntarism: A theory or doctrine that regards the will as the fundamental principle of the individual or of the universe. e.g.: as practiced in Maoist China, where public campaigns (such as the Great Leap forward) and other measures predicated on will and public action were held to be capable of overcoming objective structural social conditions.

I'll concede that it was a clumsy and obscure construction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well to be fair, given that the post was prompted, in part, by a book recently published by one of the principal subjects entitled &#8220;Save the Males&#8221; (or should that be &#8220;Save the Malez&#8221;?) and contained discussions, among other things, male experiences with education and sexuality, the menz are not entirely irrelevant or tangential to the discussion.</p>
<p>Sua sponte voluntarism - Sua sponte: Latin: &#8220;Of one&#8217;s own accord&#8221;, spontaneous, done without outside prompting or inducement.  Voluntarism: A theory or doctrine that regards the will as the fundamental principle of the individual or of the universe. e.g.: as practiced in Maoist China, where public campaigns (such as the Great Leap forward) and other measures predicated on will and public action were held to be capable of overcoming objective structural social conditions.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll concede that it was a clumsy and obscure construction.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-387912</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-387912</guid>
		<description>It refers, b, to a habit of thread-hijacking, in which MRAs come into feminist discussions to talk, invariably, about how "men suffer too".  It's a derailing tactic and thus fair game to lampoon.  It doesn't mean men don't have legitimate concerns, it just means that it's not fair to insert those concerns into a completely different discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It refers, b, to a habit of thread-hijacking, in which MRAs come into feminist discussions to talk, invariably, about how &#8220;men suffer too&#8221;.  It&#8217;s a derailing tactic and thus fair game to lampoon.  It doesn&#8217;t mean men don&#8217;t have legitimate concerns, it just means that it&#8217;s not fair to insert those concerns into a completely different discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: bmmg39</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-387901</link>
		<dc:creator>bmmg39</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-387901</guid>
		<description>Why is it widely used, though? 

If a male poster disrupted a thread here by saying, "Oh, here we go! 'The poor womenz!'" I imagine that wouldn't go over real big. By using the "word" "menz," the user seems to be trying to invalidate someone else's concerns. Can't you announce that a thread will focus on women without using an insulting term?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is it widely used, though? </p>
<p>If a male poster disrupted a thread here by saying, &#8220;Oh, here we go! &#8216;The poor womenz!&#8217;&#8221; I imagine that wouldn&#8217;t go over real big. By using the &#8220;word&#8221; &#8220;menz,&#8221; the user seems to be trying to invalidate someone else&#8217;s concerns. Can&#8217;t you announce that a thread will focus on women without using an insulting term?</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo Schwyzer</title>
		<link>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-387897</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo Schwyzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/16/feminism-shame-and-boys-responding-again-to-kathleen-parker-and-kj-lopez/#comment-387897</guid>
		<description>Fred, I find that an appalling way of dealing with domestic violence, one step above taking a suspect out and beating him senseless.  

And the term "menz" has become a trope that is widely used.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred, I find that an appalling way of dealing with domestic violence, one step above taking a suspect out and beating him senseless.  </p>
<p>And the term &#8220;menz&#8221; has become a trope that is widely used.</p>
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