Comments on: Of sacrifice and growth: an argument in favor of long-distance relationships for college students http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/ Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:05:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: chareth http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-403698 chareth Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:01:24 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-403698 i certainly wouldn't advise a pre-emptive breakup in this case, but as someone fairly recently out of school, i honestly think that if college seems often more geared toward a culture of sexual freedom and experimentation, that's probably for a good reason. i also think it's a little silly to reduce whatever adventures scott (and when her time comes, of course, brynne) in college to promiscuity. i think being in a committed relationship in college can be good (and most people at my college seemed to be in one at one time or another, despite the liberal "hookup" culture), but i also see tremendous value not in pursuing casual sex for its own sake or anything like that, but simply exploring what one wants and needs, things that in my experience often changed drastically from one semester to the next in college. there's also value in learning how to handle varying types of relationships. i really think that most people, however smart, charming or driven they may be, at college age are fundamentally still becoming themselves and aren't likely to have a seamless relationship for that four or five years because most of us change over that time. i certainly wouldn’t advise a pre-emptive breakup in this case, but as someone fairly recently out of school, i honestly think that if college seems often more geared toward a culture of sexual freedom and experimentation, that’s probably for a good reason. i also think it’s a little silly to reduce whatever adventures scott (and when her time comes, of course, brynne) in college to promiscuity. i think being in a committed relationship in college can be good (and most people at my college seemed to be in one at one time or another, despite the liberal “hookup” culture), but i also see tremendous value not in pursuing casual sex for its own sake or anything like that, but simply exploring what one wants and needs, things that in my experience often changed drastically from one semester to the next in college. there’s also value in learning how to handle varying types of relationships. i really think that most people, however smart, charming or driven they may be, at college age are fundamentally still becoming themselves and aren’t likely to have a seamless relationship for that four or five years because most of us change over that time.

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-401896 mythago Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:53:43 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-401896 <blockquote>Though by being committed, Brynne and Scott are foregoing the option to swap spit with new skin</blockquote> Wow, a two-fer: insult any future relationships they might have, or attractions felt to others, as "swapping spit", and trivialize their own relationship (see, they're swapping spit with <I>old</I> skin, but that's okay). I agree that pre-emptive breakup on the idea that you'll cheat anyway is not wise, but even dumber is the idea of sticking to a relationship that's difficult purely because it Builds Character. If their relationship is great, it will survive their having been apart for so long.

Though by being committed, Brynne and Scott are foregoing the option to swap spit with new skin

Wow, a two-fer: insult any future relationships they might have, or attractions felt to others, as “swapping spit”, and trivialize their own relationship (see, they’re swapping spit with old skin, but that’s okay).

I agree that pre-emptive breakup on the idea that you’ll cheat anyway is not wise, but even dumber is the idea of sticking to a relationship that’s difficult purely because it Builds Character. If their relationship is great, it will survive their having been apart for so long.

]]> By: Lynn Gazis-Sax http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-400172 Lynn Gazis-Sax Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:28:17 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-400172 <em>Kept my heart safe before I was ready</em> I don't get how you <em>can</em> keep your heart safe, ever, but never mind, because it doesn't purtain to this case. These guys are <em>already</em> in a relationship that they both want to keep going. Their hearts are <em>already</em> not safe. I can understand advising against an LDR that one hasn't even started yet, as the more difficult course, but, what were they supposed to do, not get involved in any high school relationship, because they'd eventually go to college? And, given that they actually want the relationship to last <em>now</em>, I think a preemptive break up because the guy might want later to be free to enjoy his requisite number of freshman year flings would be foolish. In general, I'm with B; preemptive break ups are a bad idea. Sure, the odds are good that this relationship will eventually break up, but then, that's the case with any relationship among young people, even one that's never long distance, and even one in which the people involved are well matched. Few people spend their whole lives with their first love. That's not a reason not to try to make things work with your first love, when you both really want to stay together. And, who knows, they may even last and be happy together for the long haul. I've known it to happen. Kept my heart safe before I was ready

I don’t get how you can keep your heart safe, ever, but never mind, because it doesn’t purtain to this case. These guys are already in a relationship that they both want to keep going. Their hearts are already not safe. I can understand advising against an LDR that one hasn’t even started yet, as the more difficult course, but, what were they supposed to do, not get involved in any high school relationship, because they’d eventually go to college?

And, given that they actually want the relationship to last now, I think a preemptive break up because the guy might want later to be free to enjoy his requisite number of freshman year flings would be foolish. In general, I’m with B; preemptive break ups are a bad idea.

Sure, the odds are good that this relationship will eventually break up, but then, that’s the case with any relationship among young people, even one that’s never long distance, and even one in which the people involved are well matched. Few people spend their whole lives with their first love. That’s not a reason not to try to make things work with your first love, when you both really want to stay together. And, who knows, they may even last and be happy together for the long haul. I’ve known it to happen.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399365 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 26 Jun 2008 21:53:47 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399365 Daisy, agreed: monogamy is not the only form of commitment; I agree with you unreservedly. Whatever you do in a situation like this, you "miss out" on certain things. Part of growing up, after all, is making choices that involve not going down certain roads, leaving some stones unturned, etcetera and continued metaphor. Scott and Brynne will certainly miss out on some good things if they stay in a committed LDR (I appreciate the abbreviation, Nav), but they will miss out on other valuable and good things if they break up. Assuming that the relationship is a good one, the sort that encourages mutual growth, breaking up for the sake of giving someone their "freedom" seems a poor one on balance, if only because the lessons learned as a result of staying and working on the relationship are potentially so valuable. Daisy, agreed: monogamy is not the only form of commitment; I agree with you unreservedly.

Whatever you do in a situation like this, you “miss out” on certain things. Part of growing up, after all, is making choices that involve not going down certain roads, leaving some stones unturned, etcetera and continued metaphor. Scott and Brynne will certainly miss out on some good things if they stay in a committed LDR (I appreciate the abbreviation, Nav), but they will miss out on other valuable and good things if they break up. Assuming that the relationship is a good one, the sort that encourages mutual growth, breaking up for the sake of giving someone their “freedom” seems a poor one on balance, if only because the lessons learned as a result of staying and working on the relationship are potentially so valuable.

]]> By: Daisy Bond http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399284 Daisy Bond Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:52:55 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399284 Hugo: no argument from me that committed poly relationships are quite rare among the very young. Never the less, the post equated monogamy and commitment consistently, in a way that implied, IMO, a broader conflation of the two. The system set up was a binary "committed monogamy" and "(irresponsible) uncommitted non-monogamy" -- as if those are the only two possible options, and as if one quality necessarily accompanies the other. Hugo: no argument from me that committed poly relationships are quite rare among the very young. Never the less, the post equated monogamy and commitment consistently, in a way that implied, IMO, a broader conflation of the two. The system set up was a binary “committed monogamy” and “(irresponsible) uncommitted non-monogamy” — as if those are the only two possible options, and as if one quality necessarily accompanies the other.

]]> By: z http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399277 z Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:48:47 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399277 I think what he's missing out on is the opportunity for a relationship with someone from a different place or culture than his own. Not that that's the end of the world, and not that he's guaranteed to have such a relationship if he and Brynne break up, but I think it can be a very interesting and enlightening experience to have an extremely close relationship with someone of a different cultural background. It's not nothing. I think what he’s missing out on is the opportunity for a relationship with someone from a different place or culture than his own. Not that that’s the end of the world, and not that he’s guaranteed to have such a relationship if he and Brynne break up, but I think it can be a very interesting and enlightening experience to have an extremely close relationship with someone of a different cultural background. It’s not nothing.

]]> By: Nav http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399266 Nav Thu, 26 Jun 2008 20:43:21 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399266 Why is hooking up considered irresponsible? I did my share of it in college. I wasn't really ready for a relationship through most of it, so that's what I did. Kept my heart safe before I was ready and kept myself happy enjoying a healthy sampling of my schoolmates' lips. Hooking up can be irresponsible, I guess, but the only aspect of it I'd automatically coin as irresponsible was if you weren't using protection of some kind. I also wouldn't wish an LDR on my worst enemy, but maybe that's because I had one. Open-ended LDRs are not kind, but maybe it's different when you get to date in person for awhile first. I don't know. I know people that met someone young, stayed together through college, and are now pushing 30, but most of them are divorced. Why is hooking up considered irresponsible? I did my share of it in college. I wasn’t really ready for a relationship through most of it, so that’s what I did. Kept my heart safe before I was ready and kept myself happy enjoying a healthy sampling of my schoolmates’ lips. Hooking up can be irresponsible, I guess, but the only aspect of it I’d automatically coin as irresponsible was if you weren’t using protection of some kind.

I also wouldn’t wish an LDR on my worst enemy, but maybe that’s because I had one. Open-ended LDRs are not kind, but maybe it’s different when you get to date in person for awhile first. I don’t know. I know people that met someone young, stayed together through college, and are now pushing 30, but most of them are divorced.

]]> By: Robert http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399212 Robert Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:46:35 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399212 <i>I certainly don’t want to fuel the hoary old right-wing lament about the prevalence of irresponsible hook-ups.</i> Which is more important, ideology or truth? "Hook ups" are either responsible or irresponsible. They are either prevalent, or they aren't. It's either healthy for people to behave in this way (broadly, with the understanding that everyone is different), or it isn't healthy. Damn the politics. What's good for young people? I certainly don’t want to fuel the hoary old right-wing lament about the prevalence of irresponsible hook-ups.

Which is more important, ideology or truth?

“Hook ups” are either responsible or irresponsible. They are either prevalent, or they aren’t. It’s either healthy for people to behave in this way (broadly, with the understanding that everyone is different), or it isn’t healthy.

Damn the politics. What’s good for young people?

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399170 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:15:17 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399170 Part of the problem is that different colleges have different cultures. On some campuses, perhaps more so in the South and evangelical Christian schools, boyfriend/girlfriend pairs are more common. Thinking about Cal, my alma mater, a good friend of mine from my undergrad days now works in psych services for the university -- she recounts that she has seen a notable shift in most campus groups away from "enduring pair bonds" among undergrads, though the grad students are still "marrying like mad". The university Scott is off to is a famously liberal one from which anecdotal evidence emerges that serious dating is less in vogue than "hanging out" in large groups, with occasional sexual contact taking place among group members. But of course, all of this is anecdotal, and we could all trade competing anecdotes until the proverbial cows wander home. I certainly don't want to fuel the hoary old right-wing lament about the prevalence of irresponsible hook-ups. The larger point is that there are a variety of forces that discourage serious relationships in college, particularly long-distance ones. Well-meaning peers, parents, and professors are it seems more likely to advise against heroic commitments than to advocate for them. But I have no surveys to point to, just a whole mess of accumulated experience with a certain set of young people. Advice is, in the end, only that. Part of the problem is that different colleges have different cultures. On some campuses, perhaps more so in the South and evangelical Christian schools, boyfriend/girlfriend pairs are more common. Thinking about Cal, my alma mater, a good friend of mine from my undergrad days now works in psych services for the university — she recounts that she has seen a notable shift in most campus groups away from “enduring pair bonds” among undergrads, though the grad students are still “marrying like mad”.

The university Scott is off to is a famously liberal one from which anecdotal evidence emerges that serious dating is less in vogue than “hanging out” in large groups, with occasional sexual contact taking place among group members. But of course, all of this is anecdotal, and we could all trade competing anecdotes until the proverbial cows wander home. I certainly don’t want to fuel the hoary old right-wing lament about the prevalence of irresponsible hook-ups.

The larger point is that there are a variety of forces that discourage serious relationships in college, particularly long-distance ones. Well-meaning peers, parents, and professors are it seems more likely to advise against heroic commitments than to advocate for them. But I have no surveys to point to, just a whole mess of accumulated experience with a certain set of young people. Advice is, in the end, only that.

]]> By: B http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399165 B Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:06:59 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/06/26/of-sacrifice-and-growth-an-argument-in-favor-of-long-distance-relationships-for-college-students/#comment-399165 <b>Stephen Frug</b>, As someone who was in college less than a decade ago, I was puzzled by Hugo's statement that it's increasingly rare. I was involved in a lot of different activities in college, especially ones that involved getting to know people in very big groups, and monogamous couples were very prevalent. Maybe Hugo's talking about the initial semester or year, where the freedom and huge variety of new people kind of fuels an, "OMG, so many options" sort of feeling, but most people I knew preferred having a boyfriend or girlfriend to just "hooking up". Many of my friends <i>married</i> a college boyfriend. Maybe something's changed in the last 5 years, but I kind of doubt it. Stephen Frug,

As someone who was in college less than a decade ago, I was puzzled by Hugo’s statement that it’s increasingly rare. I was involved in a lot of different activities in college, especially ones that involved getting to know people in very big groups, and monogamous couples were very prevalent.

Maybe Hugo’s talking about the initial semester or year, where the freedom and huge variety of new people kind of fuels an, “OMG, so many options” sort of feeling, but most people I knew preferred having a boyfriend or girlfriend to just “hooking up”. Many of my friends married a college boyfriend. Maybe something’s changed in the last 5 years, but I kind of doubt it.

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