Sorry, I should have been clearer. But in my mind, that is what sticks out when earlier someone mentioned teaching disobedience. These children learned disobedience very very well.

Again, I think balance is the key. I think Karen hit the nail squarely on the head.

A good friend of my wife decided she did not want to unduly influence her childrens learning processes. She decided that they needed to learn from their own experiences, rather than some predetermined way their mother viewed the world. She almost exclusively told them yes and let them discover for themselves what right and wrong is. They learned “disobedience” very well. I cannot begin to list the problems these 5 children have. In their minds, right and wrong consisted of what they could get away with without getting in trouble from other sources in the world. As long as they could avoid getting arrested, it was ok to do what they wanted to. This resulted in several unwanted pregnancies, one when one daughter was 14, and drug issues and, and, and.

I think Sweating through Fog has it right. There needs to be some semblence of moderation. We can learn much from watching animals care for their young. Depending of course on species, they largely watch over them, protecting them initially, the helping them learn to protect themselves, from the most dangerous predators, but soon enough turning them out on their own, and allowing their instincts to be their guides. Left alone, the young of most species represent an easy meal to a predator. Our young are even more vulnerable, and need our protection and teaching even more so in their formative years.

I am very wary of making a specific effort to teach disobedience. This seems to be something that kids learn and excel at, at some point in their lives, all on their own.

The other circumstance where I think obedience has some value is in recovery. The people I know that have managed to achieve long-term sobriety all agree on one thing: the only way to get there is to give up your autonomy for a time, and follow the guidance of those who have gone there before. Early in recovery, any belief in yourself, and any yearning for “autonomy” is a trap.

We don’t - even as adults - always know what is in our best interests.

And again, I still don’t want to teach obedience. If obedience is learned, than it will be the general reaction when told to do something. I want any children I have to be able to avoid doing that, whether it’s from their peers, or a person abusing their authority, or from a scientist telling them to shock someone in the other room.

When a child does not understand or agrees with the real reason to be obedient to a parent’s rule (stay away from the road because you might be hit by a car), then you have to use the “because I said so” reason. There are always spoken or unspoken consequences for not being obedient to the “because I said so” rule. The “because I said so” is usually implied, and not spoken.

“Because I said so, get away from the road; or because I said so, we are going back inside.”

Younger children often act like there is some kind of magic in speaking a command. Like when I once told my oldest son when he was a toddler to go to his room, he replied, “No Daddy! you go to your room!” Both my wife and I could tell that he actually expected me to go to my room because “he said so.”

As the child develops you switch to teaching from teaching the child to being obedient to having discipline. Discipline allows the child to fight an unjust law, and choose not to obey it. It allows them to do what is right, regardless of the consequences. Obedience is an external driven action, and discipline is an internal driven frame of mind.

Obedience can be taught, but not discipline. You can role model discipline, you can provide opportunities to develop it, but you can not teach it. Obedience is mostly used early in child rearing and as the child demonstrates more and more discipline, you rely less and less on obedience.