Comments on: On motherhood, choice, and the celebration of Agata Mroz http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/ Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:35:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: But dear God what about the menz?? at PunkAssBlog.com http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-412963 But dear God what about the menz?? at PunkAssBlog.com Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:04:23 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-412963 [...] this link back from Amanda at Pandagon and ended up in the comments section of Hugo’s original post. You can either read the comments too, or you can just read the title of this post–same [...] […] this link back from Amanda at Pandagon and ended up in the comments section of Hugo’s original post. You can either read the comments too, or you can just read the title of this post–same […]

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411399 Hugo Schwyzer Tue, 08 Jul 2008 02:10:56 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411399 People, I clearly get that respectful requests for feminist commentary <em>only</em> isn't getting anywhere. I'm closing comments on this and possibly on future posts. When the majority of my commenters are men who are either hostile to feminism, or at best, highly suspicious thereof, I'm not getting my points across. I'm debating the wisdom of having comment threads at all, honestly. People, I clearly get that respectful requests for feminist commentary only isn’t getting anywhere. I’m closing comments on this and possibly on future posts. When the majority of my commenters are men who are either hostile to feminism, or at best, highly suspicious thereof, I’m not getting my points across.

I’m debating the wisdom of having comment threads at all, honestly.

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411357 The Gonzman Tue, 08 Jul 2008 01:37:00 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411357 <i>But it is different, richard. We don’t have a draft any more (thanks be to God.) </i> I have my son's selective service registration in the second drawer down on my right. Think again. He'd have been denied financial aid had he not filled it out. <i>One difference might be that while Hugo was focusing on women giving themselves up for unborn children, the heroes you’re talking about are risking their lives for people who are already alive. Does this change anything in your analysis?</i> This woman sacrificed her life for her own flesh and blood; those heroes sacrifice their lives for people who are more often than not total strangers. Change anything in yours? I'd give my life for my son or daughter (Or possible grandchild - keeping my fingers crossed.) in a heartbeat, without a second thought. I don't believe any parent - mother, father, left, right - worthy of the title would do differently. God help their kids if they would. But it is different, richard. We don’t have a draft any more (thanks be to God.)

I have my son’s selective service registration in the second drawer down on my right. Think again. He’d have been denied financial aid had he not filled it out.

One difference might be that while Hugo was focusing on women giving themselves up for unborn children, the heroes you’re talking about are risking their lives for people who are already alive. Does this change anything in your analysis?

This woman sacrificed her life for her own flesh and blood; those heroes sacrifice their lives for people who are more often than not total strangers. Change anything in yours?

I’d give my life for my son or daughter (Or possible grandchild - keeping my fingers crossed.) in a heartbeat, without a second thought. I don’t believe any parent - mother, father, left, right - worthy of the title would do differently.

God help their kids if they would.

]]> By: Richard Aubrey http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411290 Richard Aubrey Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:28:38 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411290 Sara. Where do you get the idea that women are expected to happily cede their health and lives to the not-yet-existent? In the real world, anybody who suggested a woman was deficient because she refused to do as Mroz did would be considered a vile beast. And the point, I have to continue to drag back to it, is that self-sacrificing heroes are held up to boys/men as exemplars. Women are not alone in this. The gendered narrative is kind of interesting. Women are, according to this version, expected to sacrifice for kith and kin, men for strangers. Are you really wanting to go there? Sara.
Where do you get the idea that women are expected to happily cede their health and lives to the not-yet-existent?

In the real world, anybody who suggested a woman was deficient because she refused to do as Mroz did would be considered a vile beast.

And the point, I have to continue to drag back to it, is that self-sacrificing heroes are held up to boys/men as exemplars. Women are not alone in this.

The gendered narrative is kind of interesting. Women are, according to this version, expected to sacrifice for kith and kin, men for strangers. Are you really wanting to go there?

]]> By: Sara http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411250 Sara Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:48:31 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411250 I think the main difference here is choice - that women are expected to happily cede their health and lives to the not-yet-existent, and men are admired for choosing to be selfless. I think the main difference here is choice - that women are expected to happily cede their health and lives to the not-yet-existent, and men are admired for choosing to be selfless.

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411238 mythago Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:41:50 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411238 <blockquote>The point is not where heroes come from. The point is that life-offering heroes are held up as examples to boys, the same as the instant case regarding the article about the self-sacrificing mother.</blockquote> Right. Women are supposed to sacrifice their lives to protect their children (but not their husbands or fathers) and their virtue, and that's it. Men are supposed to sacrifice their lives to save their country, their comrades, their families, their ideals, and strangers in need. It's not that men aren't expected to be life-offering heroes, but the narratives are very gendered.

The point is not where heroes come from. The point is that life-offering heroes are held up as examples to boys, the same as the instant case regarding the article about the self-sacrificing mother.

Right. Women are supposed to sacrifice their lives to protect their children (but not their husbands or fathers) and their virtue, and that’s it. Men are supposed to sacrifice their lives to save their country, their comrades, their families, their ideals, and strangers in need. It’s not that men aren’t expected to be life-offering heroes, but the narratives are very gendered.

]]> By: djw http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411042 djw Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:56:59 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411042 You're much, much kinder than I would have been to Lopez here. You’re much, much kinder than I would have been to Lopez here.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411022 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:39:51 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411022 Do your research. Richard, the phrase predates the Third Reich. Do your research. Richard, the phrase predates the Third Reich.

]]> By: Richard Aubrey http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411006 Richard Aubrey Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:16:43 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-411006 Hugo. I'm a social conservative and those three issues leave me...bored. I suppose one's virtue is measured by one's enemies; thus the more the merrier, especially if there's no danger of actual, real danger. The reference to Nazis is egregious, although surely satisfying. Hugo.
I’m a social conservative and those three issues leave me…bored.
I suppose one’s virtue is measured by one’s enemies; thus the more the merrier, especially if there’s no danger of actual, real danger.
The reference to Nazis is egregious, although surely satisfying.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-410998 Hugo Schwyzer Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:00:55 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/07/07/on-motherhood-choice-and-the-celebration-of-agata-mroz/#comment-410998 Yes, but these trends are lamented by the family values crowd, and, if you read the literature they produce, vigorously opposed. Social conservatives are in a culture war, as they see it, and one battlefront is restoring motherhood (<em>Kinder, Kirche, Kueche</em>) to the center of American women's concerns. Yes, but these trends are lamented by the family values crowd, and, if you read the literature they produce, vigorously opposed. Social conservatives are in a culture war, as they see it, and one battlefront is restoring motherhood (Kinder, Kirche, Kueche) to the center of American women’s concerns.

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