And yes, I’m an abolitionist in my heart

Then we’re back to the problem of the principle “don’t use anything from animals” being placed above “make the choices that harm animals the least”. When we’re talking about commercial, large-scale production, the two may end up being pretty much the same for practical purposes, but they’re not really the same.

And it’s dishonest to say that you’re ‘not interested’ in going after small herders or ranchers; you are, it’s just that there are more important targets currently occupying your attention.

And that’s where it becomes problematic. If I can meet my caloric needs in part by getting milk and (non-rennet) cheese from goats I humanely raise myself, am I not a better friend to animals than the vegan who feeds himself with a bowl of rice that involved the killing of many bugs and mice to get that rice to table? Would you happily eat goat cheese at my house, knowing that the goats it came from led happy lives and that neither they nor their offspring would be culled or eaten? Or would you determine that something that came from an animal = bad, and therefore decline?

In other words, drawing a category of “nothing from animals” may make sense as a blunt, practical approach to choosing whether or not to eat commercially-grown food. It’s not a good approach if what you’re trying to decide is “what food choices can I make that are the least cruel?”

It also doesn’t really have the effect you’re looking for, unless that effect is “shock the mundanes”. You’re hoping that people will give up milk. Maybe instead people will shrug and figure that it sucks, but they’re not going vegan. Wouldn’t you rather that people think about ways to get milk humanely, rather than see it as a choice between soy cheese and suffering cows?

You CAN gather milk, honey, and wool without killing the animal — but the mechanized abuse of dairy cows, bees, and sheep is appalling. Animals that aren’t slaughtered don’t necessarily have good lives. The “happy cows” ads on TV don’t reflect the reality that most dairy cows never get to move around. They’re better off than their male offspring, who become veal. It’s pretty tough for your average American to avoid complicity with the abuses committed by the dairy industry. If you’ve got your own cow whom you care for and milk, that’s a big improvement — but that’s not how most Americans live.

Hugo, you DO just realize you told a mother who has breast-fed three children that “milk is a secretion”? No, gosh, really? Thanks for the education! It’s always good to have a man around to explain these things my lady-brain can’t handle.

The point you’re carefully not addressing, though, is that you can gather animal secretions or products (milk, honey, wool) without killing the animal, whereas there’s really only one way to get a steak. So if I am drinking milk from a cow, that doesn’t involve killing the cow - whereas your soy cheese may have required the deaths of many small animals.

(Again, I’m not arguing that therefore there’s no point in trying to be cruelty-free; only that the holier-than-thou mindset is awfully seductive, and it seems to be giving you a lapdance, Hugo.)

And mythago, milk is a secretion — when we call it “milk”, we sometimes forget what it is and where it comes from.

I agree that the game is tiresome and much like a broken record. I suppose it’s a way to discredit veganism and to silence advocates of more humane methods of slaughtering animals in the meat industry. It sure doesn’t sound like problem-solving.

When I learned, as a child, where meat came from, I had a strong negative reaction and didn’t want to eat it. My mother basically coerced me to eat meat, because she thought she was doing something healthy and nutritional for her daughter. I’m certain they were amused by my reaction, as other people often are and for whatever reason feel the need to blirt and spew criticisms, or commentaries laced with sarcasm, etc. It’s too bad more people don’t focus on problem-solving and try to adopt a more open attitude towards someone with a differing viewpoint. As an adult I still prefer a plant-based diet, and at times have tried to eliminate meat entirely from my diet for reasons mentioned above (healthier, least cruel and more sustainable). I’m not a perfect eater and although, I’ve never been much of a meat eater, I do occasionally eat it for protein. I feel a lot better about that choice and think it a healthier one for me. I know meat eaters and don’t push my views on them. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for them as they come across as angry, caustic, sarcastic and defensive, if I even mention that I prefer a plant-based diet. I’ve also stopped inviting people over for dinner since so many people are more interested in their political agenda’s and need to be heard and that they forgotten how to act like a decent guest, let alone humanbeing or even someone that anyone would want to converse with.