Comments on: Shame, suicide, sex education and the unwitting incentivizing of abortion http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/ Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:17:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: NBarnes http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457148 NBarnes Thu, 02 Oct 2008 16:19:54 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457148 Fred: Again, I'm not disputing that they were entirely sincere about their regret that they 'had' to exile this poor girl. I'm questioning their ethical bona fides that they placed the 'had' above the girl's actual needs. She was, after, <i>a girl</i>, not a woman, and needed her community's help and support to grow into an adult who could take care of herself. Fred: Again, I’m not disputing that they were entirely sincere about their regret that they ‘had’ to exile this poor girl. I’m questioning their ethical bona fides that they placed the ‘had’ above the girl’s actual needs. She was, after, a girl, not a woman, and needed her community’s help and support to grow into an adult who could take care of herself.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457134 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:05:19 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457134 Aa someone who was expelled from prep school for theft back in 1981, I can agree that expulsions are sometimes necessary. But there's a qualitative difference betweeen expelling someone for stealing from other students (either, as in my case, taking money) or plagiarism -- and expelling someone for having an abortion off campus. One is a judgment about a violation of the common bonds that hold a community together publicly; the other is an assertion of dominion over the private sphere of someone's life. They are worlds apart. And of course, given our cultural shaming of women who have sex before marriage (especially teens), there's no question that the potential psychic damage for this kind of expulsion is much, much worse. I was expelled for the sin of greed that had a direct bearing on my fellows; Elena was expelled for a private and immensely difficult act of conscience. Aa someone who was expelled from prep school for theft back in 1981, I can agree that expulsions are sometimes necessary. But there’s a qualitative difference betweeen expelling someone for stealing from other students (either, as in my case, taking money) or plagiarism — and expelling someone for having an abortion off campus. One is a judgment about a violation of the common bonds that hold a community together publicly; the other is an assertion of dominion over the private sphere of someone’s life. They are worlds apart.

And of course, given our cultural shaming of women who have sex before marriage (especially teens), there’s no question that the potential psychic damage for this kind of expulsion is much, much worse. I was expelled for the sin of greed that had a direct bearing on my fellows; Elena was expelled for a private and immensely difficult act of conscience.

]]> By: Fred http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457128 Fred Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:56:36 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457128 Students get expelled from schools, private and public, all the time. Students get expelled for many different reasons: physical violence, sexual harassment, illegal drug use, theft, skipping school, poor academic performance, etc. At private religious schools, you can be expelled for religous reasons. Students and parents are informed on what actions will get students expelled from their school. So are schools suppose to not expel students because the students might end up feeling guilt from being expelled? Students get expelled from schools, private and public, all the time. Students get expelled for many different reasons: physical violence, sexual harassment, illegal drug use, theft, skipping school, poor academic performance, etc. At private religious schools, you can be expelled for religous reasons. Students and parents are informed on what actions will get students expelled from their school. So are schools suppose to not expel students because the students might end up feeling guilt from being expelled?

]]> By: NBarnes http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457010 NBarnes Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:03:12 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-457010 <i>I would add that most of the religious people in the Catholic school where I taught were absolutely sincere and well-meaning in their pro-life beliefs, and I don’t fault them for it. What I object to is the way the administration cast Elena out.</i> I find it very hard to extend much credit for being well-meaning and sincere when in combination to the exile unto death of a young girl. I don't think 'well-meaning' and 'sincere' mean what you think they mean, if they <i>are</i> comparable with casting Elena out. Does Son of Sam get credit for really, truly believing that God told him to righteously kill? I get really tired of people being excused for obviously antisocial behavior because they can point to a widely-accepted religious rationale. Those of us who don't choose to piously mouth similar things are held to account for the consequences of our choices. I would add that most of the religious people in the Catholic school where I taught were absolutely sincere and well-meaning in their pro-life beliefs, and I don’t fault them for it. What I object to is the way the administration cast Elena out.

I find it very hard to extend much credit for being well-meaning and sincere when in combination to the exile unto death of a young girl. I don’t think ‘well-meaning’ and ’sincere’ mean what you think they mean, if they are comparable with casting Elena out. Does Son of Sam get credit for really, truly believing that God told him to righteously kill?

I get really tired of people being excused for obviously antisocial behavior because they can point to a widely-accepted religious rationale. Those of us who don’t choose to piously mouth similar things are held to account for the consequences of our choices.

]]> By: I Was Banned From an MRA Site at PunkAssBlog.com http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455661 I Was Banned From an MRA Site at PunkAssBlog.com Thu, 25 Sep 2008 04:58:00 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455661 [...] had glanced over one or two of his writings in the past, but after witnessing all the love flowing in his direction in a recent Hugo post, I decided that maybe I hadn’t really spent [...] […] had glanced over one or two of his writings in the past, but after witnessing all the love flowing in his direction in a recent Hugo post, I decided that maybe I hadn’t really spent […]

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455611 mythago Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:33:41 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455611 "Depression incentivizes eating lots of chocolate and ice cream" does not mean that the only reason people eat chocolate and ice cream is that they're depressed. “Depression incentivizes eating lots of chocolate and ice cream” does not mean that the only reason people eat chocolate and ice cream is that they’re depressed.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455602 Hugo Schwyzer Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:59:43 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455602 Fred, shame is one incentive for abortion. Poverty is another. One cause is not all the causes. Black (and Hispanic) women are presumably more likely to be poor, and thus to lack the resources to raise a child and to access effective contraception. Poverty, shame, lack of comprehensive sex education, an inability to say "no", a broken condom, a sudden job loss -- there are a great many things that make abortion the best of some not very good options. But in the instance of the young schoolgirl of whom Glenn wrote, shame is perhaps the catalyst <em>primus inter pares.</em> Fred, shame is one incentive for abortion. Poverty is another. One cause is not all the causes. Black (and Hispanic) women are presumably more likely to be poor, and thus to lack the resources to raise a child and to access effective contraception. Poverty, shame, lack of comprehensive sex education, an inability to say “no”, a broken condom, a sudden job loss — there are a great many things that make abortion the best of some not very good options. But in the instance of the young schoolgirl of whom Glenn wrote, shame is perhaps the catalyst primus inter pares.

]]> By: Fred http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455601 Fred Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:30:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455601 "Well, if you look across Europe, abortion rates are higher in countries that are affluent but have slightly more restrictive policies on abortion (UK is more restrictive than Sweden)." Actually Sweden is significantly more restrictive on abortion than the UK or the US. In Sweden, for pregnancies between 12 and 18 weeks of pregnancy, the pregnant woman is required to discuss the abortion with a social worker before being allowed to have an abortion. An abortion performed after 18 weeks of pregnancy is legal only if the National Board of Health and Welfare authorizes the procedure based on special reasons. In general, such an abortion may not be performed if there is reason to suppose that the embryo is viable. However, if there is a serious threat to the life or health of the pregnant woman, an abortion may be authorized at any time during pregnancy. “shame incentivizes abortion” By your premise, black women in the US have about five times as much shame than white women. It is the social-economic level differences causing most of the different rates of abortion. ( See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html?hpid=moreheadlines) In 2004, there were 10.5 abortions per 1,000 white women ages 15 to 44, compared with 28 per 1,000 Hispanic women of that age and 50 per 1,000 black women. That translates into approximately 1 percent of white women having an abortion in 2004, compared with 3 percent of Hispanic women and 5 percent of black women. “Well, if you look across Europe, abortion rates are higher in countries that are affluent but have slightly more restrictive policies on abortion (UK is more restrictive than Sweden).”

Actually Sweden is significantly more restrictive on abortion than the UK or the US. In Sweden, for pregnancies between 12 and 18 weeks of pregnancy, the pregnant woman is required to discuss the abortion with a social worker before being allowed to have an abortion. An abortion performed after 18 weeks of pregnancy is legal only if the National Board of Health and Welfare authorizes the procedure based on special reasons. In general, such an abortion may not be performed if there is reason to suppose that the embryo is viable. However, if there is a serious threat to the life or health of the pregnant woman, an abortion may be authorized at any time during pregnancy.

“shame incentivizes abortion”

By your premise, black women in the US have about five times as much shame than white women. It is the social-economic level differences causing most of the different rates of abortion.

( See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/22/AR2008092202831.html?hpid=moreheadlines) In 2004, there were 10.5 abortions per 1,000 white women ages 15 to 44, compared with 28 per 1,000 Hispanic women of that age and 50 per 1,000 black women. That translates into approximately 1 percent of white women having an abortion in 2004, compared with 3 percent of Hispanic women and 5 percent of black women.

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455480 mythago Tue, 23 Sep 2008 01:33:29 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455480 Glenn has gotten a lot of crap from fellow MRAs who, for reasons I truly have never understood, hate gay men. He also did a brilliant takedown of Gonzman's defense of Darren Mack. Glenn has gotten a lot of crap from fellow MRAs who, for reasons I truly have never understood, hate gay men. He also did a brilliant takedown of Gonzman’s defense of Darren Mack.

]]> By: Glenn Sacks http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455473 Glenn Sacks Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:45:58 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2008/09/22/shame-suicide-sex-education-and-the-unwitting-incentivizing-of-abortion/#comment-455473 Amanda wrote "anti-choicers forget that women have lives, and that their opposition to women’s control of their lives amounts to being objectively anti-life." Amanda--I understand how you feel but I would add that most of the religious people in the Catholic school where I taught were absolutely sincere and well-meaning in their pro-life beliefs, and I don't fault them for it. What I object to is the way the administration cast Elena out. An interesting question which I don't know the answer to is if the Los Angeles Archdiocese or most of the other Catholic schools still have expulsion policies for pregnancy or abortion. I seem to remember some people on your side of the aisle doing something about this a few years ago but I don't remember what the result was.--GS Amanda wrote “anti-choicers forget that women have lives, and that their opposition to women’s control of their lives amounts to being objectively anti-life.”

Amanda–I understand how you feel but I would add that most of the religious people in the Catholic school where I taught were absolutely sincere and well-meaning in their pro-life beliefs, and I don’t fault them for it. What I object to is the way the administration cast Elena out.

An interesting question which I don’t know the answer to is if the Los Angeles Archdiocese or most of the other Catholic schools still have expulsion policies for pregnancy or abortion. I seem to remember some people on your side of the aisle doing something about this a few years ago but I don’t remember what the result was.–GS

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