My most popular posts, in terms of repeat visits and search engine queries, have to do with age-disparate affairs and student crushes. Generally, I write about older men, younger women relationships. But sometimes, the proverbial shoe is on the other foot.
I got an email a few days ago from “Luke”. Luke is 22, and just finished up an undergraduate degree in sociology at a mid-size and prestigious eastern university. For the last two years, Luke has been mentored by a female professor in her early fifties, a woman he has admired tremendously and from whom he has learnt a great deal. His professor is divorced and lives alone, and at the end of last semester, he was invited over (by himself) to her house. Pleased to be able to spend some quality time with his mentor, he eagerly agreed to visit.
Luke’s mentor offered him drinks (he is of age), and then propositioned him, telling him in fairly explicit terms how attracted to him she was. Luke made his excuses and left. As might be expected, he’s fairly shaken up about it:
I feel like it changed things,
but I don’t know how to be honest and deal directly with her. Honestly I am
anxious and saddened. I also feel guilty about it because as strange as it
seems to me, I started to develop quasi-romantic feelings for her midway
through the semester. Those feelings were oddly innocent (like a feeling of
tingling), but they were there. Something like: I had the strange compulsion to
hug her one moment after school (which I didn’t do). But we talked about these
kinds of things and I was frank with her… but withheld the cookies of sex
from her. So I feel like I arrested a natural progression of where things were going, and I also
feel like my mentor will resent me for it, at least at first. Even the first time I went over her house, I thought to myself as I got ready to go, ‘woah!… this kinda feels like a date…. hmmm, weird.. . . . . . Oh, well!”
My question is how do I continue this relationship
professionally while taking into account that I was propositioned; no I do not
want to take her up on the offer. She is actually a very cool, unique, and laid back lady,
and I take after her. I don’t want to condemn her for what she did. She was
tempted (I guess?), and I am an adult legally. But this relationship is not an
equal one. How could it be? She’s as old as my mom.
I suppose the first point to make is the most essential one: our skewed perceptions about male and female sexuality lead us to see older women, younger men relationships very differently than the reverse. With some considerable justification, we see women as having considerably more potential to be victimized and harassed than we do men; we see men as having considerably more potential to victimize and harass than we do women. And of course, when we look at statistics around rape, assault, and harassment, those perceptions are validated by the evidence. But we make a mistake when we confuse a patriarchal power structure that privileges men over women with the notion that each individual man always has power over each individual woman. And we make an even graver mistake when we deny that men — not just young boys, but grown men — can be victimized by asymmetrical sexual relationships.
I’ve written over and over again about the dangers of older men, younger women relationships — particularly when the woman involved is in her early twenties or younger. I’ve written too, from painful experience, independent research, and acquired wisdom of the importance of observing excellent boundaries between professors and students. Luke’s email is an important reminder that those boundaries ought not to exist solely to protect vulnerable women from predatory older men. It is also an important reminder that young men can get crushes on female professors or authority figures. With our narrow assumptions about the nature of the erotic, we sometimes assume, usually because of some specious argument derived from pop evolutionary psychology, that older men are “naturally’ attracted to younger women. But since that same “argument from nature” doesn’t apply nearly as well when the sexes are reversed, we ignore the obvious potential for older women and younger men to find each other attractive, and we ignore the reality that this particular brand of age-disparate relationship can be just as problematic.
But Luke is not writing for advice on how to proceed into a love affair with a woman three decades his senior. This is not what he wanted. It’s important to note how similar his experience is to that of many female students in relationships with male (or female) professors; Luke admits to having had “quasi-romantic feelings” for his professor, and those seem to have contributed to his own anxiety. But of course, one of the most important things to remember about student crushes is that they are, frequently, without serious sexual intent. (Again, this is not to deny that some students are very clear that they are sexually attracted to their professors). Students who “crush” on their professors frequently are confusing a desire to be like an admired lecturer with a desire to be with that person. And the evidence seems to be that young men do get crushes on female professors, despite the oft-held position that age renders older women sexually invisible to younger men. This blurring of the line between the longing to emulate and the longing to sleep with is evidently not something that only young women experience!
We tend to eroticize admiration, as I’ve written many times. And wise faculty members of either sex ought to be very familiar with the student crush phenomenon. Though it is generally not unpleasant to be admired (most of us in this gig have healthy egos), we generally do great harm when we take advantage of these crushes. Though Luke’s professor rightly waited until he was technically no longer her student to make her advances, the end of her academic supervision over him did not mean that their relationship had suddenly become an equal one, nor did it mean that her ability to perceive his crush upon her (we can presume she did notice) meant that she was entitled to interpret his “quasi-romantic feelings” as legitimate sexual interest.
It certainly is possible for Luke to resume a healthy professional mentor-mentee relationship with this woman; it’s obviously something he wants. But that will be contingent upon his professor’s willingness to observe boundaries, and to take his “no” for a final and enduring answer. Luke still feels overwhelmed, describing himself as both “sad” and “angry”. And, as an inspiring academic, he’s learned a good lesson:
And I learned, that it is NEVER acceptable for these two kinds of people to get together like we might have. Being on the receiving end of it made me sick to my stomach. So when I myself have the opportunity to guide the young and eager, I had better mind my P’s and Q’s because I must confess I would be tempted too.I’ll try to empathize and remember how terrible it felt!
Feminists are periodically accused of turning a blind eye to the potential for women to harm men. It’s true that many of us are accustomed to doing battle with the men’s rights movement, which struggles to make the case that women abuse husbands far more often than husbands abuse wives, and that our national Violence Against Women Act is discriminatory. My annoyance at the “men are victims too” campaign is rooted less in a denial of the fact that men can be hurt by women and more by the implication that the patriarchy is an unreal construct, and that women have just as much agency and possibility and safety (if not more) than men. But in battling back against the exaggerations of the men’s rights advocates, it’s important to acknowledge that men can indeed be victimized, can indeed be hurt, and can indeed be hurt by asymmetrical relationships with more powerful older women. “Unusual” is not a synonym for “never”, and the relative rareness of the problem doesn’t mitigate the harm that can be done.
Here’s wishing Luke all the best, and here’s wishing his mentor has a serious re-think about her role and her responsibility.
Hugo,
happy new year. Interesting post. I don’t want to discuss the following here as it would be largely off-topic, but I would really like you to write somethinh more general about this at some point -
“the implication that the patriarchy is an unreal construct, and that women have just as much agency and possibility and safety (if not more) than men.”
I’m really no MRA but usually annoyed by the fact that those who claim structural oppression aren’t usually aware of the plight of others, certainly not when they feel they’re fighting the good fight, and collateral damage is inevitable. Case in point - your need to state something like this - “But we make a mistake when we confuse a patriarchal power structure that privileges men over women with the notion that each individual man always has power over each individual woman.”
Anyway, with respect ot the first quote, I really think that there’s too many axioms and incommensurable assumptions involved to actually make a statement like that. Patriarchy, in the way often referred to by not just a few feminists, is indeed an unreal construct - precisely because it’s not quantifiable or measurable - in fact feminsit standpoint epistemology prevents whatever real defintion there may be. The way much of feminism seems to conceptualize “patriarchy” seems to be an all-consuming matrix with only feminists as people able to see the glitch when at the same time their own epistemological tools tell them that this cannot possibley be true.
I never really understood how such a non-definition of a central concept of feminism has been possible and can still be used to deflect criticism ( if only by then actually using a more quantifiable and mutually accessible version of the concept).
Well, maybe you could explain that at some point.
Cue snark-filled and condescending “TROLL!” accusation in 3… 2… 1…
The term “patriarchy” is an often useful term that encompasses a whole set of structures that still exist in the market, the workplace, the church, the family, the university and elsewhere. There’s a great deal of history of how the term came to be used as shorthand for that — but it’s massive thread drift to raise that here. Luke’s issue is what I’d like to focus on.
Hugo, as I said, I understand my comment would cause a thread drift if discussed here - I did not intend to do that, but as I also said, I’d really like to hear your take on this at some point.
I think there is another interesting feminist issue in play here, too. Luke comments that “this relationship is not an equal one; how could it be? She’s as old as my mom”. Luke is perceptive and quite correct in his assessment of the situation (though I think there is more than age at play), but to me this was the comment that most piqued my interest. We as a society don’t typically accept relationships between older women and younger men, we don’t expect them to be equal. And yet younger women are expected to hold their own with men who are “as old as [their dads]”.
While I agree that Luke’s supervisor has made an egregious error in this instance, and that the patriarchy harms men and women, the thing I am taking away from your post to think about is the disparity between our expectations of young men and young women in these situations–it’s not something I have really considered before.
Interesting, Placebogirl. There’s a sense that a young man has less to offer an older woman than a young woman does to an older man — perhaps rooted in our belief that a bright young woman could, as you say, hold their own with much older men, while a young man is presumably so callow that he is simply “young, dumb, and full of cum” as the vulgar expression goes. It’s rooted, among many other things I think, in our low expectations of men and what they are capable of.
If this professor is currently his mentor, she was absolutely out of line and inappropriate. I get the sense Luke is conflicted about this, partly because of quasi-romantic feelings (does he blame himself?) and, I suspect, because it isn’t considered appropriate in our culture for men to be uninterested in sex (unless the woman is highly unattractive and perhaps not even then). I’m sure Luke is going to get “Mrs. Robinson” comments if he mentions this to some of his more ignorant friends.
I get the sense Luke is conflicted about this, partly because of quasi-romantic feelings (does he blame himself?) and, I suspect, because it isn’t considered appropriate in our culture for men to be uninterested in sex (unless the woman is highly unattractive
There’s also bound to be confusion if in fact Luke *is* feeling sexual attraction to a woman in her 50s, because our culture dismisses women of this age as “post-sexual” and not to be considered as real sex partners. To a young man, it might feel a little odd to be attracted to a woman the culture tells him cannot possibly be seen as a sexual being.
So there’s a whole bag of stuff to be unpacked there - not only the mentor/mentee power imbalance. It’s absolutely out of line for a mentor to have approached him as this woman did, but his reaction I think probably has a whole bunch of tangled threads in it, owing to the culture we have.
to Broce
“owing to the culture we have.”
Isn’t “culture” definitely the heart of the matter?
Living in France, possibly gives me a completely different outlook on feminism, I don’t know.
But to me, it seems that our culture should rather prevent that type of awkward feelings Luke is experiencing, or help him and his lectuter go through it rather than saying “it should not happen “owing to the culture we have”. of course it is a bad situation! but feminism is all about building culture!
Hi Hugo,
Cool, cool post. Also pretty cool that people are addressing issues you’ve raised without… too much immediate drift. I may seem to drift a bit in this comment but I promise if I do I’ll bring it back to Luke’s specific concerns.
Probably by complete coincidence I wrote a post last night on the structural complications of men-must-invite/women-must-invite. (Another blogger, Em of Em and Lo, wrote a post basically encouraging women to keep asking, despite discouragement, and encouraging men to consider a response other than “woah, she must be desperate.”)
Of course there’s a rather large difference between heterosexual women asking men out in a bar (with men “gatekeeping” their replies) and women professors asking male students. The first is a good idea. The second, while technically “gender equal” is, of course, inappropriate.
I think a lot of patriarchy (ok, or for skeptics what we *call* patriarchy) is wrapped up in the traditional requirement that men are allowed the power to initiate and women have only the “power” to reply affirmatively or, most of the time, to decline. One consequence is that the situation Luke has found himself in is rare.
But that patriarchy’s a real thing only *masks* that power is often situational/structural rather than innately gendered. In other words patriarchy has insured men generally have the keys, not that only men are capable of driving.
So. *If* women mostly haven’t been initiators (blame patriarchy) and if women mostly haven’t been in academic mentoring relationships to younger men, then…
Well, then a couple of things shake out. First, obviously, it was harder for both Luke and his mentor to recognize that what she had proposed was *really* inappropriate. Second, I get the impression that it made it harder for him to recognize that the same recourses (both informal and formal) are available to him that would be available to a young woman in a similar situation. And finally, should he raise the issue it might be harder for him to be heard correctly — either by her or his college — than it might be for a similar young woman. (No, *finally* it might be harder for his mentor to get a “fair trial” since on the one hand there are expectations that her gender doesn’t do that sort of thing but on the other hand there are MRA/what-about-the-menz types who’d foghorn it endlessly. And in either case she have trouble being listened to for the part she actually played rather than what everyone’s stories would be.)
I’d like to talk for a second about Placebogirl’s point and say that the situation for Luke might have been even more complicated had the age difference not been so great. Because as she points out we do have *some* narratives, mostly negative, about “desperate” older women falling “foolishly” in love with younger men. See the character Ruth in “Pirates of Penzance” who, from my perspective, isn’t even that old at forty-seven years. Anyway, had the mentor been in her 30s instead of 50s some of the other complications that have been raised here, like the expectation that men shouldn’t “turn down” sex, might have come into play such that he would have been spun longer by the power differential.
The one… I don’t know if I’d call it good but maybe I’ll call it fortunate… thing about this role reversal is that it’s setting people back just enough to consider that such relationships *can* be walked back towards something professional, appropriate, and ongoing. Something that may have been lost when the discussion was only about older men and younger women.
I’m not absolving *anybody* here, just saying that just as the heated attractions of those teaching and studying in a current course can fall back to normal when the course ends, so mentor/protege relationships that haven’t been egregiously manipulative can also be guided back to normal after an appropriate intervention.
—
“My annoyance at the ‘men are victims too’ campaign is rooted less in a denial of the fact that men can be hurt by women and more by the implication that the patriarchy is an unreal construct, and that women have just as much agency and possibility and safety (if not more) than men.”
Agreed. But over time, as gender and other traditional imbalances continue to normalize I’m hoping we’ll start seeing more use of the word kyriarchy — the generic term for abuse of any and *all* power differentials.
So. About Luke. First of all I think he’s doing the right thing by talking about what’s happened. And I think it’s *incredible* that he’s recognizing that if he stays in academia he too might have… well… innocently isn’t the right word but maybe unconsciously is… wound up putting a student of his own in the same position he’s in. But I think it would be good, *after* talking to others about it, to communicate clearly but without any sense of obligation to his mentor, to let her know that he’s conflicted, that he felt maybe the unfamiliarity of the gender switch distracted them from warning signs that would otherwise have been really obvious, and that while he’d like to continue working with her (it sounds like it is) that she has to exercise her own responsibilities.
Because the thing is his situation is *not* an oddity, it’s a *early indication.* She’s not the only woman to find herself in this position, nor is he. Instead similar dynamics are almost certainly happening elsewhere already and as gender becomes more power-normalized it’s definitely going to turn up more and more often.
At least until everyone recognizes that what’s going on and stops whistling “it can’t happen here.”
It would also be great if he, and ideally she, could to continue modeling an appropriate, non-galvanized approach to resolving the situation. It would help all kinds of people who find themselves in their situation. In both non-traditional power gradients and… perhaps in traditional ones as well.
figleaf
Oof! That was long. My apologies!
figleaf
rather than saying “it should not happen “owing to the culture we have”
It should not happen because this woman is his mentor. “The culture we have” is relevant to Luke’s feelings about the situation, not the obvious impropriety of inviting a mentee to your home and hitting on them.
It was long but right on, fig. And this is an important reminder:
The one… I don’t know if I’d call it good but maybe I’ll call it fortunate… thing about this role reversal is that it’s setting people back just enough to consider that such relationships *can* be walked back towards something professional, appropriate, and ongoing. Something that may have been lost when the discussion was only about older men and younger women.
Quick note. Sungold of the blog Kittywampus, a women’s studies or women’s history professor, pointed out to me in comments that it’s pretty hard to imagine a professor in her 40s or 50s not knowing full well that her solicitation was out of line.
It doesn’t change anything else about my reply but unless there were mitigating circumstances Luke didn’t mention or that you didn’t relay (for instance he’d been accepted to grad school and their professional relationship was completely over) then… I still think his initial conversation should be cautiously amicable but if there’s any conflict at all he should consider seeking institutional support.
figleaf
I prefer the company of young men and women,far more than people of my own age. They have a freshness and vitality that is wonderful.And yes, I would love a younger partner. And yes again, it is out of the question and so I go for long walks with my dog and mourn the passing of youth.
“It’s true that many of us are accustomed to doing battle with the men’s rights movement, which struggles to make the case that women abuse husbands far more often than husbands abuse wives, and that our national Violence Against Women Act is discriminatory.”
We male egalitarians definitely believe the latter; we don’t necessarily believe the former. Close to equal, perhaps, but I don’t know if any of us have made the claim that women abuse men “far more often than” the reverse.
And I agree with Mythago on the point that, regardless of which gender is propositioning which, the fact that one is in a position of mentoring/educating the other is what makes this inappropriate.
I feel it’s probably best that Luke steer clear of this woman. Even tho he’s of legal age, and a college graduate, it appears to me that this woman has had a long-standing crush on him (and maybe hopes?). She might try to come on to him again. And who knows, she may have put the moves on other former students, too.
“Unusual” is not a synonym for “never”, and the relative rareness of the problem doesn’t mitigate the harm that can be done.
According to recent studies, nearly 40% of male victims of sexual abuse and rape were victimized by women. “Unusual” does not appear to be the apt word. So while you state “we make an even graver mistake when we deny that men … can be victimized by asymmetrical sexual relationships” you unfortunately make that mistake yourself with the above comment. By repeatedly suggesting that women preying on males is extremely rare, you are implying that it never occurs, which is demonstrably false. As such, your post does more to silence male victims and further shame them than it does to shed light on their victimization or acknowledge it as equal to that of females.
My annoyance at the “men are victims too” campaign is rooted less in a denial of the fact that men can be hurt by women and more by the implication that the patriarchy is an unreal construct
That is an instance of arguing belief against belief. An atheist is probably going to treat Original Sin as an unreal construct because he does not agree with Christian theories. However, it would make little sense to disregard or ridicule an atheist’s concern for the marginalization and mistreatment of gays based on his unwillingness to accept Christian beliefs. Failing to agree with theories and belief systems does not mean that the veracity of a person’s concerns is lacking. Annoyance is also not a valid reason to dismiss a person’s concerns.