I noted a few weeks ago that I was interested in hearing from folks with experience in older men/younger women relationships. I mentioned at the time that I wanted to hear from four categories of persons:
1. Women who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially older men, particularly when those relationships began while the women were in their teens or twenties; also, younger women who have had a pattern of attraction to much older men.
2. Men who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially younger women, or who have developed a pattern of attraction to much younger women.
3. Young men who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a female peer’s interest in a much-older man.
4. Women who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a male peer’s interest in a much-younger woman.
Please email me at hbschwyzer@gmail.com with your story.
I didn’t include a questionnaire, because for the purpose of the book narrative stories are much more helpful than interview-style answers. But some folks have asked for more guidance, and I want to accomodate them below the fold.
When it comes to women involved with older men, I am primarily interested in hearing from women whose interest in older men began before they (the women) hit 30. (Stories about 45 year-olds who suddenly find themselves involved with 70 year-olds, while interesting indeed, are not the focus of this book.) For those women, here are some questions:
1. Did your attraction to older men predate a specific relationship, or did something “happen” with an older man that first triggered an interest in pursuing a romantic or sexual relationship? How old were you when you first became aware of your interest in older men?
2. What fears, hopes, fantasies did you have that were specific to an older man?
3. How, generally speaking did you (or do you) view men in your own age group? What, if anything, did an older man offer you that (at least in your opinion) a younger man couldn’t?
4. What responses did you get from friends and family when they discovered your interest in/relationships with older men?
5. Were the older men in whom you were interested in positions of authority over you at any time? Teachers, professors, supervisors, bosses, and so forth?
For older men involved with younger women (particularly with women more than ten years their junior, and under the age of thirty), the same questions — except from the reverse perspective. I’d also add this one:
1. What, from an older man’s perspective, changed about how you saw yourself and your own masculinity as a result of being in a relationship with a much younger woman?
Again, please pass this on to interested parties, and email me at hbschwyzer@gmail.com
Many thanks
I want to send you a narrative style response, just that I’m working on my honors thesis this semester and I’m directing most of my writing energy toward it at the moment. I’ll probably talk to my therapist about it first, put myself in a safe place to articulate it. I’ve appreciated your point of view on this subject so much in your blog, I really want to do the best job possible at giving back. Spring break is the middle of March here, so I hope to get something to you by then.
No worries, jf; as you know, this is a long and ongoing project for me, and with Cerys in my life, my productivity has slowed considerably!
And, don’t go expecting it to increase anytime soon…dad!
:)
how about i get back to you in say, oh-8 years? i could definitely see myself dating a much older man by then.
WWA, you’d be moving out of my demographic. Those women in their teens and early twenties who know that they aren’t ready for one reason or another to date an older fellow are exactly the sort of demographic I’m not interested in… not because they aren’t interesting, but because their willingness to wait takes them outside the parameters of the book. I’m interested in hearing from folks who at least for a time have believed “age is just a number” and who lack or lacked the ability to forego gratification in the here and now…
Hugo, given your outspoken loathing of age-disparate relationships, what guarantee can you give anyone who actually submits a testimonial to you that they’ll be treated fairly? If a young woman submits a story about a perfectly happy and satisfying relationship she’s had, or may yet still be having, with an older man, will her positive experience be included in your book? And if so, will it be treated respectfully, or dismissively in a “while Sarah may have a happy story, the reality for most people is…” way? I think you will be slanting the book towards an antagonistic view of age-disparate relationships. Will you or won’t you?
The book, Martin, will be based as much on the replies I get as on my own views. I certainly will not reject the possibility that some age-disparate relationships can work out well for those involved. But the plural of anecdote is not data, and some happy individual stories do not vitiate the reality that in general, the sexualization of young women by older men is deeply problematic.
Those who feel otherwise are welcome, of course, to pursue their own book projects!
And when writers ask for stories, it is always with the understanding that those who write in may not have their tales included, or that their anecdotes will be edited. That is par for the proverbial course.
I’m getting lots of good stuff, by the way, from three of the four groups I’m looking for — but would love more from young men irked by/frustrated by the interest their female peers may take in older men.
But the plural of anecdote is not data, and some happy individual stories do not vitiate the reality that in general, the sexualization of young women by older men is deeply problematic.
So that’d be a “yes,” then.
Now, what evidence do you plan to put forth that your opinion in the above sentence is in fact “reality”?
I mean, I know it’s problematic to you, and your personal moral sense about how adults should and should not conduct relationships. But outside of that, where is the problem?
Martin, do you really need to talk to Hugo? If you’re going to put words in his mouth, you can just write HugoScript to generate the responses you’d like.
Martin, Hugo doesn’t need reality. He has something better, which is feminist dogma.
Personally, I don’t there is anything, not a whit, wrong with age-disparate relationships (as long as both people are legal adults and the relationship is loving, long term, and eventually open to developing into marriage and procreation). Indeed, there are some advantages to relationships in which the woman is young enough to be fertile, and the man is old enough to be able to support a family. I’m not saying that such are always _better_ but no one should feel there is anything _wrong_ about them.
If I think that Hugo is so deeply wrong about abortion and homosexuality, as well as about Christology, then why would I ever think he was a credible source when talking about age disparities?
That’d be any time before menopause. Good grid, where did we get this cultural myth that women go from “fecund” to “might as well use your uterus for a doorstop” as soon as they turn 25?
Mythago,
I wouldn’t discourage an older woman from trying to have children, particularly if she doesn’t have any, but it is a fact that your chances of birth defects, and your likelihood of getting pregnant in the first place, do seriously increase after about 35.
Simply put, peak fertility is around the early twenties.
“Peak fertility” does not equal “anytime after this is poor fertility.” My wife is well into her mid-thirties, and we had no trouble conceiving a lovely baby girl. The narrative of “have babies now before it’s too late” is rooted more in conservative ideology than physiological truth.
I suppose it’s worth asking, Hector, why you linger here when I am so wrong? I don’t get the fascination folks have with engaging in comment threads on blogs whose very premise is so antithetical to their own deeply held values. It’s not like I hang around at Dawn Eden’s place.
While it’s certainly true that women’s fertility declines with age, and while it’s probably better to have children before you’re 35 than after, I’d like to point out that 35 is a milestone because it’s the age at which the still low chance of having a baby with chromosomal defects starts to pass the very low chance that amniocentesis will cause a miscarriage.
Hugo,
You and your wife were lucky. I’m glad that you were lucky. But many couples are not. I frequently tell my female friends something to the effect of ‘have babies now before it’s too late’, because I feel that’s the best advice I can give.
As for why I comment on your blog, I think that as long as we live in a pluralistic society, we ought not to segregate ourselves into intellectual ghettoes of like-minded people.
Hector,
There’s a difference between this supposed intellectual segregation, and calling people who disagree with you “dogmatics”.
It is not particularly ‘lucky’ for a woman in her mid thirties to succesfully conceive. This is craziness!!!! Most of my friends who are peers in age, and have had children, have only just done so, and that is quite alot of them (I am 39). They seemed to be popping them our like peas. My living room is covered with photos of the glowing, healthy new babies of old school friends.
I know four women who are having problems - one of whom is just 40, and has been trying for about 3 years. Another is 29 and having fertility problems (and her older husband had rubbed his hands with glee at the prospect of her perceived fertility). Two have had to go through a still birth, one at 30, the other at 31.
So what does an older man do if his younger, supposedly more fertile mating partner turns out to have problems conceiving, or conceives a child with a disability? dump her? And I can’t help thinking that if the answer is no, then a yearning for healthy biological children is not the true reason for a preference for the much younger female. A bit af straight talking and honesty wouldn’t go amiss.
It only makes sense if you think that women stop being able to have babies as soon as they turn 30, or that men can’t support a family until they’re 35 and up.
Hector, I’m sure your female friends deeply appreciate your advice on when they should have babies, but wiser advice would be to urge them to get tested for STDs. Untreated, diseases like chlamydia can destroy fertility.
Re: Hector, I’m sure your female friends deeply appreciate your advice on when they should have babies, but wiser advice would be to urge them to get tested for STDs. Untreated, diseases like chlamydia can destroy fertility.
Mythago,
I’m sure some of them appreciate it, and others don’t. But you know, I have to call it as I see it. As for STDs, very few of my female friends indulge in lots of casual sex, so their chances of having STDs are low. Having sex only in the context of a long-term, monogamous relationship does wonders to protect you against disease risks.
But, I will take that under advisement.
Being in a long-term relationship doesn’t protect you if your partner already had an STD he or she didn’t know about, and it doesn’t protect you if they cheat on you. (Or if, god forbid, somebody drops a drug into your glass of wine at dinner.) And if you assume you can’t possibly be at risk, you won’t get tested for diseases that are asymptomatic and, in the long term, terribly destructive.
Sorry for the digression, please move along…
Mythago,
Well, yes, getting tested is always a good idea. But it remains a fact that the best way of avodiing STDs is to not sleep with too many people. Most of my female friends don’t sleep around, so I don’t worry too much about them in that regard. I’m not sure why feminists put so much energy into denying this elementary fact and defending the modern hook-up culture, but whatever.
Ok then Hector: Here is my advice to men, re your advice to women.
If you are dead set on biological children of your own and on raising a happy, healthy family, make sure you find a healthy happy, and genuine love match with an equal before you get to your mid forties. This way, you will avoid the fertility problems which begin in men in their forties (also be very careful with your diet at this stage in your life); you will have enough energy to care for both your children and your grandchildren; your wife/partner will therefore be alot less likely to resent you and divorce you, disrupting the children’s lives, and your children will have a stable base and witness a healthy model for relationships; if you are equal to your wife you will not be so afraid that she is with you for your money and therefore be more secure; you will be more likely to live into your children’s middle age, thus sparing them the immense trauma of the death of a parent at a young age and sparing you grandchildren the absence of a grandfather.
Finally, you will be much more likely to survive to see and appreciate your grandchildren - often seen as the great reward of having children. If you leave it too late you will miss this.
Sound patronising??? yes, I thought so…
Oh Hector - also, make absolutely sure you partner/wife is mature enough to handle the responsibility of parenthood, including financial capability and readiness to forgoe pursuit of self interest as a major aim (around early thirties is usual for this) and that they have enough self awareness to nurture an enduring relationship in which they will be happy - otherwise you’ll end upe seperated or misrable.
If you need any more advice, just let me know. I’m happy to help you with this!
Hector, not “sleeping around” (whatever THAT means) does reduce your odds of catching an STD. It doesn’t eliminate the chance of getting an STD. I don’t understand why modern social conservatives believe that viruses are intelligent, avenging angels of God who only afflict those who sleep around more than they do, but whatever.
Well said, matey.
“Peak fertility” does not equal “anytime after this is poor fertility.” My wife is well into her mid-thirties, and we had no trouble conceiving a lovely baby girl. The narrative of “have babies now before it’s too late” is rooted more in conservative ideology than physiological truth.
I beg to differ, Hugo. The statistical trend towards decreased fertility and difficulty in carrying to term in pre-menopausal women with the advancement of age is well documented; while the curve is not so steep for men, it also exists. Also it should be pointed out that after menopause, conceiving for women without artificial (and expensive!) aid is statistically zero. I also know of women who have not hit menopause till near fifty, and one who started menopause at 28. “I have time” is rolling the dice.
Not ideology. Science.
The advice is not “Have your babies now.” The advice is “Be informed that there is such a thing as waiting too long, and you have no idea when that point will be reached.”
I suppose it’s worth asking, Hector, why you linger here when I am so wrong? I don’t get the fascination folks have with engaging in comment threads on blogs whose very premise is so antithetical to their own deeply held values. It’s not like I hang around at Dawn Eden’s place.
I second the motion of “As for why I comment on your blog, I think that as long as we live in a pluralistic society, we ought not to segregate ourselves into intellectual ghettoes of like-minded people.” If you wish only agreement with your POV, or wish conservatives to just STFU in the public sector, please be honest enough to just say it outright.
Also, for the record, I don’t know of any couple - provided they remain monogamous and had no STD’s coming in to the relationship - who ever had to worry about STD’s.
Even with properly used birth control and safe sex practices the chance of an unwished-for pregnancy or the exposure to STD’s coupled with casual sex are still >0. As far as pregnancy goes, conception without sex has only one reported case to my knowledge, and that was over 2000 years ago, and even that is disputed.
No matter how “careful” you are, you’re still rolling the dice. Be informed. Again, not ideology. Science.
Women’s/girl’s eggs decrease in number and health from birth. So, if maximmum number and health of eggs is the sole reckoner for ideal age of motherhood, then it’d be the onset of menses you’d be aiming for, which for a very, very good reason is illegal.
Being a good parent is dependent on many things, and also a matter of personal judgement - quality and number of eggs is part of that for some people. But it is not the be all and end all.
To adopt, both sexes have to be of certain age and pass a number of tests, including health, financial and emotional stability and the availability of support networks.I think these tests are in pace for very good reasons, and of course they have nothing to do with the number of eggs a woman is carrying or a man’s sperm count.
Women’s/girl’s eggs decrease in number and health from birth. So, if maximmum number and health of eggs is the sole reckoner for ideal age of motherhood, then it’d be the onset of menses you’d be aiming for, which for a very, very good reason is illegal.
Good Lord, no - the ability to carry to term and survive a difficult birth is connected to maturity.
I’m offering no advice you should. I am offering information that one has a window - which shifts from person to person - as to when, presuming fertility, one may conceive, carry to term, and survive a difficult birth. That window has a general range, but no set time frame.
Same for men; while the curve is much less steep and except rarely doesn’t have the “Th-th-th-the-th-That’s All, Folks!” element of female menopause, sperm count, motility, and viability tapers off with age.
If biological children are important to you, it is one which should be kept in mind. If you don’t wish children, are willing or wanting to adopt, or to be a step parent - well, the above does not apply.
Matey,
Er, I don’t find it patronizing. (But then again, I subscribe to fairly authoritarian and paternalistic views about politics and religion, so I find relatively few things ‘patronizing’.) I disagree with some of your statements- in what sense should a relationship be “equal”? In terms of age? Height? Earning power? Education? Social status? Temperament? Strength of will? There are a lot of people who are deferential by nature, and who don’t necessarily want to be “equals” in their relationships- some men as well as some women. I fail to see the virtue into forcing them to conform to some feminist egalitarian script.
I mean, I’m not a particularly strong-willed person, by nature, and I would be happy deferring in most things to my (eventual) wife. I see no need to have my way 50% of the time, or whatever Hugo’s idea of “equality” means.
I do agree with you though that men should not put off having children too late either. I’m in my late 20s and I certainly _hope_ that I’ve started having children well before 40.
TheGonzman -
A) I’m a conservative, too, and I haven’t perceived that we’ve been told to shup up.
B) You’re right about birth control being only ~99% effective. My mother conceived my brother - while carefully on two types of birth control - when she was in her mid-thirties. Apparently fertility isn’t always a problem in one’s thirties.
Hey Hector, glad to hear you’re so open to advice. Also - don’t worry about women in their thirties and fertility too much. Their really isn’t a problem there - we have a massive amount of eggs so losing even alot of them won’t make us infertile or, at that age, hold any extra substantial health risk to the baby.
Some more advice: On the whole, women are very much aware of their fertility window, they tend ti look into these things and do their own research. It can often be a very sensitive and painful issue, so when giving advice to them I’d make sure it’s solicited, and accurate. If you tell them their window is smaller than it actually is you will risk alienating them and p’ing them off. When men do this it can feel like a kind of smug and heartless, ha, ha, the game’s up for you but I’ll still be spawning them at 75 like Rod Stewart or Peter Stringfellow… and be leaving my poor (most probably imaginary) future wife who probably isn’t born yet to look after the kids alone.
So there we have it, we agree that both men and women should ideally start having biological kids by 40.
I think it’s up to you to decide what your equal is - according to your priorities and values, it’s your relationship after all! Good luck and I wish you many grandchildren.
Pretending anecdote is proof for the moment, you’re telling me you’ve never known a couple in a supposedly monogamous relationship where one person is fooling around, and you’ve never known a couple where one person brought an STD into the relationship?
And Hector, what matey said - don’t be That Guy.
Mythago,
Um, that’s not the spirit in which I say that at all. I say it in the spirit of, “I love you as a friend and sister in Christ, I wish you a happy life full of children, and I’d like to offer whatever suggestions I can to help you get there- in the confidence that even if you don’t agree with me, you will still appreciate my concern.”
Hector
As I said - women, really, really do not need to be told about this, they already know about it VERY well. And if they have missed the biological clock striking midnight it is not because some well meaning young chap, who does not yet have the wisdom of maturity, didn’t tell them it was turning 6pm - it’ll be because they didn’t find a man they could create a good family with, or becuase there is some circumstance in their life which stopped them (like recovering from serous child trauma or the like) they will have tried,,,, believe me, very often heartbreakingly. You saying those things to women is totally pointless and counter productive and will only serve to rub salt in any wounds caused by their disappointments so far (whatever their age) in the search for a suitable partner.
So while you are searching for the mother of your children (which, by the way with your proposed timetable, you don’t have much time for) bear this in mind because you don’t want to risk turning her off in this way - you could miss the boat too. You need to grasp every oppurtunity you can. Even if you think this way of speaking to women is ok, please believe me it is a massive turn off and they will be running for the hills. Call it a man woman thing if you like. But I am advising you to take this advice, it is NOT a nice feeling to be faced with the prospect of being unable to have children, so don’t rub salt in and do what yo can to avoid being there yourself.
I don’t get the fascination folks have with engaging in comment threads on blogs whose very premise is so antithetical to their own deeply held values.
Because we like open discussion and the free exchange of ideas, even those with which we disagree. Maybe such a discussion can lead to a rethinking of deeply held values. Or maybe not, but the exchange is interesting. Unless you only like echo chambers and choir-preaching, but an educator ought to be above that, I’m sure.
Hector - the spirit is pretty gift-wrap, but the message is still “Hi! I’m making it your business to tell you how to live your life, and here’s how I think you should live it.”
Now, certainly, one may have friends who are close enough that you absolutely know their life circumstances and how your words will be received. But if you know someone that well, you also aren’t going to be giving unsolicited advice; you’ll be having a mutual discussion to help a friend.
Otherwise, if you haven’t already, one of these days you’re going to be ‘helpful’ to a woman who’s had three miscarriages, or whose fiance just told her he doesn’t want children after all, or who found out that some terrible hereditary disease runs in her family and being a mother means she has to adopt.
I am trying to fine out if younger women dating older men is something can work. I can’t seem to find any thing tilling me if I should get into a relationship with a young lady that is pursuing me. she is 30 years old and never been married and has no kids. and I am 60 years old and heathy, lonely and single. And she really wants to come to america and be with me. she is from the UK her mother and father are gone and she is and only child, And a very beautiful women. and I would love to be with her. If you could help in anyway as to what I should be thinking. that would be helpful. And she is not asking for money or any thing else. she already has a pastport and getting her own ticket? if this is something you don’t feel you want to help with, then please just till me or till me someone else that can. I don’t have any one to talk to about this. thank you for your time. I hope to hear something Randy