Comments on: More on the martyrdom of Dr. Tiller, and repudiating violence in the animal rights movement http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/ Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:09:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: JD http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-518357 JD Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:41:19 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-518357 OK, so you didn't like seeing a video where Dr. Tiller himself explains his work. Can you answer, however, whether you'd similarly lionize a guy whose occupation consisted of drowning disabled and unwanted dogs and cats? Somebody has to do it, right? OK, so you didn’t like seeing a video where Dr. Tiller himself explains his work.

Can you answer, however, whether you’d similarly lionize a guy whose occupation consisted of drowning disabled and unwanted dogs and cats? Somebody has to do it, right?

]]> By: JD http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-518321 JD Sat, 06 Jun 2009 03:53:29 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-518321 You don't see any tension between your veganism and your laudatory celebration of a guy whose profession involved ripping limbs from fetuses at a time when they have sentience and can feel excruciating pain? Don't be so naive as to think all, or even most, of Tiller's patients involved horribly deformed babies (not that disability is a reason to have someone killed anyway). You don’t see any tension between your veganism and your laudatory celebration of a guy whose profession involved ripping limbs from fetuses at a time when they have sentience and can feel excruciating pain? Don’t be so naive as to think all, or even most, of Tiller’s patients involved horribly deformed babies (not that disability is a reason to have someone killed anyway).

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-518152 The Gonzman Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:22:56 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-518152 <i>I’m sure that leaders of peaceful civil-rights movements would be very interested to know that the inevitable result of anyone having a grievance is that they will turn to violence.</i> Apples and garden hoses. First, things like the Watts Riots were as much a part of the Civil Rights Movement as any peaceful protest; to say otherwise is to be guilty of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Second, I wasn't talking about abortion. I’m sure that leaders of peaceful civil-rights movements would be very interested to know that the inevitable result of anyone having a grievance is that they will turn to violence.

Apples and garden hoses.

First, things like the Watts Riots were as much a part of the Civil Rights Movement as any peaceful protest; to say otherwise is to be guilty of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.

Second, I wasn’t talking about abortion.

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517935 mythago Thu, 04 Jun 2009 04:41:18 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517935 Hector, that's certainly an option. But the "give us what we want or else" false dilemma Gonz et al pose is just that - false. It's an excuse and a justification for violence. Peaceful protest is just a lot less fun than bashing heads. Hector, that’s certainly an option. But the “give us what we want or else” false dilemma Gonz et al pose is just that - false. It’s an excuse and a justification for violence. Peaceful protest is just a lot less fun than bashing heads.

]]> By: Ayezur http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517932 Ayezur Thu, 04 Jun 2009 04:24:52 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517932 "However, I do believe in karma, and so when one commits an act — in this instance, an act I consider immoral — it is bound to bounce back." This is a common misconception about karma. Karma is a concept inextricably tied with reincarnation, because karma is the notion that yes, your actions will have consequences for you. Over the course of your next however-many-are-necessary lifetimes. Any karma that comes to you - good or bad - this life is the result of deeds in a previous one. Or not. You could also just have gotten wrapped up in someone else's karma. It was probably your karma to get wrapped up in their karma. Karma is not an instajustice evil-smiting system. That's not how Hinduism rolls. We acquire karma and work it out, acquire it and work it out, riding and riding the wheel of suffering until, eventually, we find a place from which we can break through the maya (the illusory, material world) and attain moksha, or transcendence, and are finally freed from the cycle of death and rebirth. It was very possibly Dr. Tiller's karma to die as he did. But it was equally likely that it was his karma to live as he did. Remember that. “However, I do believe in karma, and so when one commits an act — in this instance, an act I consider immoral — it is bound to bounce back.”

This is a common misconception about karma. Karma is a concept inextricably tied with reincarnation, because karma is the notion that yes, your actions will have consequences for you.

Over the course of your next however-many-are-necessary lifetimes.

Any karma that comes to you - good or bad - this life is the result of deeds in a previous one. Or not. You could also just have gotten wrapped up in someone else’s karma. It was probably your karma to get wrapped up in their karma.

Karma is not an instajustice evil-smiting system. That’s not how Hinduism rolls. We acquire karma and work it out, acquire it and work it out, riding and riding the wheel of suffering until, eventually, we find a place from which we can break through the maya (the illusory, material world) and attain moksha, or transcendence, and are finally freed from the cycle of death and rebirth.

It was very possibly Dr. Tiller’s karma to die as he did. But it was equally likely that it was his karma to live as he did. Remember that.

]]> By: Hector http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517920 Hector Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:25:55 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517920 Re: They are not barred from the political process. It’s just that the process is not letting them win, so they’re griefing. Personally, an increasingly atractive solution to me is looking like emigrating to South America, renouncing my US citizenship, and spending the rest of my life in Jeremiah Wright style fulminations (a man whom I deeply respect BTW). The political process is not going to do us any good anytime soon, so perhaps the solution for some of us is, as Saint John said, to "come out of Babylon." Re: They are not barred from the political process. It’s just that the process is not letting them win, so they’re griefing.

Personally, an increasingly atractive solution to me is looking like emigrating to South America, renouncing my US citizenship, and spending the rest of my life in Jeremiah Wright style fulminations (a man whom I deeply respect BTW). The political process is not going to do us any good anytime soon, so perhaps the solution for some of us is, as Saint John said, to “come out of Babylon.”

]]> By: mythago http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517915 mythago Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:31:03 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517915 I'm sure that leaders of peaceful civil-rights movements would be very interested to know that the inevitable result of anyone having a grievance is that they will turn to violence. The argument that if you don't let a spoiled brat win the game he'll kick the board over is not a neutral observation, but a threat. It also pretends that the <I>only</I> alternative to getting one's way immediately is violence; that anti-abortion activists have no means other than violence to achieve their goals. And, of course, that's a lie. Anti-abortion activists are free to persuade people to change their minds; to seek to have <I>Roe v Wade</I> overturned in the courts; to get a Constitutional amendment passed that would recognize human life as beginning at conception; and so forth. They are not <I>barred</I> from the political process. It's just that the process is not letting them win, so they're griefing. I’m sure that leaders of peaceful civil-rights movements would be very interested to know that the inevitable result of anyone having a grievance is that they will turn to violence.

The argument that if you don’t let a spoiled brat win the game he’ll kick the board over is not a neutral observation, but a threat. It also pretends that the only alternative to getting one’s way immediately is violence; that anti-abortion activists have no means other than violence to achieve their goals.

And, of course, that’s a lie. Anti-abortion activists are free to persuade people to change their minds; to seek to have Roe v Wade overturned in the courts; to get a Constitutional amendment passed that would recognize human life as beginning at conception; and so forth. They are not barred from the political process. It’s just that the process is not letting them win, so they’re griefing.

]]> By: The Gonzman http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517895 The Gonzman Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:53:18 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517895 <i>Faith, that is not what he said. What he said was that given enough time, any person with a grievance will eventually resort to violence. This seems to be historically true, particularly when it comes to politically charged issues. The more ardent a person’s beliefs are, the more likely that person is going to eventually use violence as a means of getting that message across.</i> Why bother, TS? Attacking what she wishes I said is much easier that actually engaging what I did say. Faith, that is not what he said. What he said was that given enough time, any person with a grievance will eventually resort to violence. This seems to be historically true, particularly when it comes to politically charged issues. The more ardent a person’s beliefs are, the more likely that person is going to eventually use violence as a means of getting that message across.

Why bother, TS? Attacking what she wishes I said is much easier that actually engaging what I did say.

]]> By: ahunt http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517890 ahunt Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:02:50 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517890 No and no. No and no.

]]> By: Toysoldier http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517861 Toysoldier Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:49:07 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/06/01/more-on-the-martyrdom-of-dr-tiller-and-repudiating-violence-in-the-animal-rights-movement/#comment-517861 <i>I can’t believe that a man is getting away with saying that it’s understandable for men to kill their wives under certain circumstances on what is supposed to be a feminist blog.</i> Faith, that is not what he said. What he said was that given enough time, any person with a grievance will eventually resort to violence. This seems to be historically true, particularly when it comes to politically charged issues. The more ardent a person's beliefs are, the more likely that person is going to eventually use violence as a means of getting that message across. I can’t believe that a man is getting away with saying that it’s understandable for men to kill their wives under certain circumstances on what is supposed to be a feminist blog.

Faith, that is not what he said. What he said was that given enough time, any person with a grievance will eventually resort to violence. This seems to be historically true, particularly when it comes to politically charged issues. The more ardent a person’s beliefs are, the more likely that person is going to eventually use violence as a means of getting that message across.

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