Comments on: Flaming coals amidst the ashes: more reasons for optimism in the aftermath of Maine http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/ Wed, 17 Mar 2010 01:44:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: schism http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528221 schism Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:00:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528221 <i>schism- If most of the voters CAN’T be convinced of anything then why are the “traditional marriage” folks spending so much money?</i> Fearmongering draws a crowd, basically. It doesn't change anyone's mind, but it does impel people already inclined to believe that gays are converting children (or whatever) to strike back, as it were. schism- If most of the voters CAN’T be convinced of anything then why are the “traditional marriage” folks spending so much money?

Fearmongering draws a crowd, basically. It doesn’t change anyone’s mind, but it does impel people already inclined to believe that gays are converting children (or whatever) to strike back, as it were.

]]> By: davev http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528219 davev Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:03:11 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528219 Hugo- I don't think that YOU are ageist, but some of the comments on other left leaning blogs have been over the top. A comment such as "I can't wait for these f*cking geezers to die off" is ageist anyway you slice it or dice it. I also think that change is far from a foregone conclusion. You have to factor in immigration and the values that those people bring to the table. Several countries in Europe will be majority muslim in less than 40 years unless there is a stunning turnaround in demographic trends. What will the status of gay rights be in Sweden or the Netherlands circa 2050? What values are immigrants to America bringing? schism- If most of the voters CAN'T be convinced of anything then why are the "traditional marriage" folks spending so much money? . . . even if it was half the amount of money that the pro gay marriage side spent in Maine. (Personally, I wish the traditional marriage people would put that money to use helping the poor.) Hugo- I don’t think that YOU are ageist, but some of the comments on other left leaning blogs have been over the top. A comment such as “I can’t wait for these f*cking geezers to die off” is ageist anyway you slice it or dice it.

I also think that change is far from a foregone conclusion. You have to factor in immigration and the values that those people bring to the table. Several countries in Europe will be majority muslim in less than 40 years unless there is a stunning turnaround in demographic trends. What will the status of gay rights be in Sweden or the Netherlands circa 2050? What values are immigrants to America bringing?

schism- If most of the voters CAN’T be convinced of anything then why are the “traditional marriage” folks spending so much money? . . . even if it was half the amount of money that the pro gay marriage side spent in Maine. (Personally, I wish the traditional marriage people would put that money to use helping the poor.)

]]> By: schism http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528175 schism Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:00:22 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528175 <I>It’s as though certain individuals who support gay marriage are celebrating the impending death of an entire generation of people instead of sincerely trying to convince those voters.</i> Most of these voters <b>can't</b> be convinced of anything. It's no coincidence that the most obstinate opposition to gay rights (and biology, and astronomy, and...) comes from religious communities; when you're taught from day one to uncritically accept whatever the guy behind the pulpit tells you to believe and that all the people outside your little church bubble are reprobate heathens out to corrupt you and everything good in the world, you become quite skilled at ignoring facts and logic that disagree with your preconceptions. There's no way to change that externally, the person has to be willing to think outside the box on their own. It’s as though certain individuals who support gay marriage are celebrating the impending death of an entire generation of people instead of sincerely trying to convince those voters.

Most of these voters can’t be convinced of anything. It’s no coincidence that the most obstinate opposition to gay rights (and biology, and astronomy, and…) comes from religious communities; when you’re taught from day one to uncritically accept whatever the guy behind the pulpit tells you to believe and that all the people outside your little church bubble are reprobate heathens out to corrupt you and everything good in the world, you become quite skilled at ignoring facts and logic that disagree with your preconceptions. There’s no way to change that externally, the person has to be willing to think outside the box on their own.

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528152 Hugo Schwyzer Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:52:56 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528152 The religious right are the footsoldiers of the traditional marriage movement, and they play on anxieties about children and on sentimental attachments to the notion of marriage as a vehicle for reproductivity. It's not that the voters are all religious -- but the funding sources almost invariably are. Dave, it's not ageism to note that older folks have tended to be more socially conservative than their children. Death is part of the life cycle -- and while I do not wish an untimely death upon anyone, I won't avoid pointing out the obvious either. The religious right are the footsoldiers of the traditional marriage movement, and they play on anxieties about children and on sentimental attachments to the notion of marriage as a vehicle for reproductivity. It’s not that the voters are all religious — but the funding sources almost invariably are.

Dave, it’s not ageism to note that older folks have tended to be more socially conservative than their children. Death is part of the life cycle — and while I do not wish an untimely death upon anyone, I won’t avoid pointing out the obvious either.

]]> By: davev http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528148 davev Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:43:21 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528148 Some of the ageist comments made by several left-leaning commenters on blogs have been just stunning. It's as though certain individuals who support gay marriage are celebrating the impending death of an entire generation of people instead of sincerely trying to convince those voters. I also keep reading about the religious right and how they tilted things in Maine. I can hardly believe that when the reality is that Maine is among the top five most secular states in the union. Maine is NOT in the bible belt; the marijuana proposal won big. Was the religious right pushing for state funded dispensaries? :) Some of the ageist comments made by several left-leaning commenters on blogs have been just stunning. It’s as though certain individuals who support gay marriage are celebrating the impending death of an entire generation of people instead of sincerely trying to convince those voters.

I also keep reading about the religious right and how they tilted things in Maine. I can hardly believe that when the reality is that Maine is among the top five most secular states in the union. Maine is NOT in the bible belt; the marijuana proposal won big. Was the religious right pushing for state funded dispensaries? :)

]]> By: Hugo Schwyzer http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528106 Hugo Schwyzer Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:19:22 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528106 Rache, you're the rabbi, my dear; don't you have a slightly more direct line? ;-) Rache, you’re the rabbi, my dear; don’t you have a slightly more direct line? ;-)

]]> By: Rachel Barenblat http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528101 Rachel Barenblat Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:23:19 +0000 http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/11/05/flaming-coals-amidst-the-ashes-more-reasons-for-optimism-in-the-aftermath-of-maine/#comment-528101 From your lips to God's ears, Hugo. From your lips to God’s ears, Hugo.

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