Archive for the 'Older Men & Younger Women' Category

Heather Corinna on “your older boyfriend”

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on March 3, 2009
in Links and Older Men & Younger Women
. 20 Comments

The splendid sex educator Heather Corinna put up a terrific post at Scarleteen on Saturday: Why I Deeply Dislike Your Older Boyfriend. It dovetails very nicely with the ongoing discussion here about older men and younger women relationships, and Corinna writes from the particularly vital perspective of someone who works as closely — if not more so — with young people as I do. She also acknowledges that though rare, healthy age-disparate relationships can and do exist. Here’s my favorite bit of raw truth:

Some of why he’s choosing to be with someone who is not closer to his same age, nearer to his same place in life is so that he doesn’t have to change. The way he acts and the things he does might hurt you, and your age difference and the dynamics being played out in all that may well be doing you real harm. But, the thing is, in order for him to change he’d have to want to do that work, and to want to do that work, he’d have to care at least as much about you as he cares about himself. And chances are good that he just plain doesn’t. I know that hurts like hell, but I also know that so much of why it hurts is because you’re still trying to get blood from a stone rather than kicking the empty rock that he is aside and saving your love for the care of someone who earnestly wants to care for it. They’re out there, I promise: but they are not this guy. Changing this can’t rest on him, because he’s just not going to do it.

Ties in a bit with what I wrote here.

Read the whole thing, and consider contributing to Scarleteen’s fundraising campaign. There are few worthier causes than giving young people accurate, affirming, sensible information about sexuality. And no site on the web does that better than Scarleteen. Join me in supporting their invaluable work.

Older Men, Younger Women, and two different speeds towards adulthood

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 23, 2009
in Having children and Older Men & Younger Women
. 70 Comments

A week ago, I posted a request once again for “older men, younger women” stories. I’ve had several dozen replies, but am still eager for more. In any case, the discussion thread below the post turns to a re-visiting of the old myth about younger women and fertility.

Hector takes the classic traditionalist view: men need to be “older” and women “younger” because of economics and biology. The man needs “time” to grow to the point where he can support a family, while a woman ought to be younger and hence more likely to be fertile. Hector (and the legions who share his views) offer a weird amalgam of evolutionary psychology, biological half-truths, and an unwitting social commentary on how long it takes men to get their acts together in our culture. Hector tells us that he often offers advice to the women in his life to settle down and reproduce sooner rather than later.

“Matey” has a great rejoinder.

I’m in my early forties, my wife in her mid-thirties, and she is on the younger end of first-time mothers in our social circle. We both recognize that there is a very slight decline in fertility for folks our age, along with an equally slight concomitant risk in potential pregnancy complications. That said, we’re also keenly aware of how the “have kids young, before it’s too late” message is one far more rooted in ideology than in biological fact. A culture deeply troubled by women’s independence and ambition has good reason to encourage the young to step onto the “mommy track” as early as possible. Untangling hard fact from misogynistic myth is difficult.

But for the sake of argument, let’s grant that women hoping to have children ought to start early. That still doesn’t explain why they ought to partner with older men (especially given that fertility problems and birth defects — particularly autism and schizophrenia — are much more likely in the children of old dudes). Why not devote energy to fighting the scourge of “guyhood” — the flight from responsibility and commitment that characterizes so many young men’s lives? If you really want your young women married and pregnant early, then push young men to get their acts together sometime before they turn 35. American middle-class male adolescence has turned into a quarter-century project; far too many twenty-something lads are far too hooked on pot, porn, and Playstation to even consider making commitments. A thoughtful social conservative wouldn’t push for age-disparate relationships as part of some divine or natural plan; a thoughtful social conservative would push to accelerate young men’s acceptance of responsibility so that it harmonized neatly with young women’s fertility.

Personally, I think most folks of either sex are better off waiting to have children. One tends to be much more patient, one tends to have worked through more of one’s own insecurities and “issues”, one tends to have more financial resources. (There are myriad exceptions, of course — irresponsible forty-somethings and responsibile twenty-somethings are not unheard of.) It’s also, happily enough, a good way of practicing family size limitation. Extreme experimentation with fertility drugs notwithstanding, women who start to reproduce in their thirties or even early forties are more likely to have only one or two children, thus placing less long-term stress on our planet’s resources.

One thing is clear: whatever you consider the ideal age for reproducing, there is no defensible rationale for arguing that dramatically age-disparate relationships are ideal. Unless, of course, you embrace the lie that men are entitled to enjoy three decades worth of puberty, while their sisters ought to start breeding before the first wrinkles appear.

Older Men, Younger Women Book Proposal Research Questions: UPDATED

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 16, 2009
in Older Men & Younger Women and Writing
. 37 Comments

I noted a few weeks ago that I was interested in hearing from folks with experience in older men/younger women relationships. I mentioned at the time that I wanted to hear from four categories of persons:

1. Women who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially older men, particularly when those relationships began while the women were in their teens or twenties; also, younger women who have had a pattern of attraction to much older men.

2. Men who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially younger women, or who have developed a pattern of attraction to much younger women.

3. Young men who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a female peer’s interest in a much-older man.

4. Women who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a male peer’s interest in a much-younger woman.

Please email me at hbschwyzer@gmail.com with your story.

I didn’t include a questionnaire, because for the purpose of the book narrative stories are much more helpful than interview-style answers. But some folks have asked for more guidance, and I want to accomodate them below the fold. Continue reading ‘Older Men, Younger Women Book Proposal Research Questions: UPDATED’

Call for stories: on my “older men, younger women” project, and a request for assistance

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 2, 2009
in Older Men & Younger Women and Writing
. 3 Comments

Please pass this on to folks who might be interested!

I’m working on a book about older men and younger women, building on something I’ve blogged many, many times. Though I’ve heard from many people over the years, I’d like more true-life stories from folks in any of the following four categories.

1. Women who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially older men, particularly when those relationships began while the women were in their teens or twenties; also, younger women who have had a pattern of attraction to much older men.

2. Men who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially younger women, or who have developed a pattern of attraction to much younger women.

3. Young men who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a female peer’s interest in a much-older man.

4. Women who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a male peer’s interest in a much-younger woman.

I’m interested in stories, but also in the feelings that went with these relationships. All correspondence will be presumed to be publishable, though I will change identifying information. I appreciate any help that folks can give; please distribute this request widely. Every email will receive a response.

Please send emails to hbschwyzer@gmail.com

“Teaching May Be Hazardous to Your Marriage”: Social scientists and the myth of male weakness

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on June 30, 2008
in Academia, Divorce, Older Men & Younger Women, Teaching and Youth
. 37 Comments

Reader and blogger Treifalicious sends me a link to this PDF file of a 1999 study on college professors and divorce. Published in the journal of Evolution and Human Behavior, it’s melodramatically entitled Teaching may be hazardous to your marriage.

The abstract:

Kenrick et al.’s experiments demonstrate that men who view photographs of physically attractive women or Playboy centerfolds subsequently find their current mates less physically attractive and become less satisfied with their current relationships. What then would be the
cumulative effect of being exposed to young, attractive women on a daily basis? Would there be any real consequences to the men’s dissatisfaction with their relationships? Secondary school teachers and college professors come in contact with more young women at the peak of their reproductive value than others do. The analysis of a large, representative data set from the United States indicates that, while men in general are less likely to be divorced than women, and secondary school teachers and college professors in general are less likely to be divorced than others, simultaneously being male and being a secondary school teacher or college professor statistically increases the likelihood of being divorced We contend that the contrast effect that Kenrick et al. find in their experiments is cumulative and has real
consequences.

It’s an almost laughable study, save for the fact that it’s, well, so bloody infuriating. Here’s the initial premise:

Few occupations and professions afford greater opportunities to come in contact with
women in their teenage years than teachers in secondary and postsecondary schools. These
teachers experience the cumulative effect of exposure to young, attractive women who are at
their peak reproductive value more acutely than people in most other occupations.

I suppose that’s true enough, though I can’t say I think much of the term “peak reproductive value.” No offense intended to teenage moms out there, but in my experience, those who choose to make babies in their thirties often (not always) have more “valuable” resources (time, patience, finances) than those in their “peak” reproductive years.

But then the study’s authors lose me completely. They note that those who teach are slightly more likely to stay unmarried after they divorce, though the difference with the general population is barely significant. But then this whopper:

We believe that there are two possible interpretations for this finding. First,
subsequent to divorce, male teachers and professors may remain unmarried because they prefer
to pursue a series of affairs with female students without marrying them. Second, they may remain unmarried because, due to the cumulative contrast effect, any adult woman they might meet and date after their divorce would still pale in comparison to the young attractive women with whom they come in daily contact.

“Pale in comparison”? Continue reading ‘“Teaching May Be Hazardous to Your Marriage”: Social scientists and the myth of male weakness’

Asking out Dr. “desperately hot”: a note on students pursuing former professors

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on June 12, 2008
in Older Men & Younger Women, Student crushes and Teaching
. 10 Comments

One of my former students has now transferred on to a large university elsewhere in the state. A 22 year-old junior, she took a class this past quarter with what she describes as a “desperately hot” 30 year-old assistant professor. He’s in his first year teaching the best of all possible subjects (history), and according to my former student, he’s said to be “single and straight and very available.”

My former student has read my various postings on student crushes and on older men, younger women relationships. She shot me a message on Facebook this week, asking me whether I thought it would be appropriate for her to ask out “Dr. Desperately Hot” now that the term is over. She’s quite clear that this isn’t just an intellectual crush — she’s interested on, as she puts it “every level.”

Assuming she’s not likely to be his student again, I wrote her a short note telling her, in essence, “Go for it.” An eight year age-gap is not insignificant, but it’s not an insurmountable one. (I admit I would have responded differently had her Dr. DH been 40 instead of 30.) I’m familiar with the campus on which she studies and he teaches; the university policy in place, like that at Pasadena City College, prohibits professors from dating their current students, but says nothing about dating former students who continue to be enrolled in other instructors’ classes.

I got a follow-up note:

Cool. So, another question: how do I ask him out??? Do I suggest coffee, trying to make it seem like I just might want a friendship? Or do I just flirt with him (more than I have been!!) to see if he takes the inititaive?

I pointed out to her that students frequently invite me to coffee. The nice thing about coffee is that it can have multiple meanings; it can be a wonderfully casual “first date”, or it can be an extension of normal office hours, complete with refreshment. I’m a great believer in having coffee with students, knowing that the chance to chat with a professor one-on-one in an informal environment was one I always treasured when I was an undergraduate. It’s a situation that can be, and indeed should generally be entirely non-sexual, uncharged and unfraught with romantic implications. But it’s relatively easy for even a young adult to inject some gentle flirtation into a coffee date — and my former student can try that with Dr. DH and see how he responds.

I warned her, half teasingly, that she might be very disappointed. Many of us who are masterful and charismatic in the classroom are stunningly not so when we are out of “our element”. While there’s nothing inherently unethical about a 22 year-old dating her 30 year–old former professor, the chances are pretty damn high that she’s got him on some sort of a pedestal. Up until this point, theirs has been a one-sided relationship; he lectures to a large classroom, she sits and gazes at him. She projects more on to him than he has to her, even if he has “noticed” her in a way that goes beyond the purely professional. The chances of disillusionment on her part are near 100%, though I’ve seen more than one relationship survive that process.

Because we’re friends, I felt comfortable challenging my former student to check her motives. Some students pursue professors for the same reason some young women seek out older men; they look for a yardstick by which to measure their own attractiveness. Dating (or, depending on the milieu, merely having sex with) a popular professor who is widely acknowledged to be “desperately hot” might be simply a way to boost the ego, or to boost status in the eyes of peers who share an attraction to this desirable instructor. Even if he is older and presumably wiser, it’s at best unkind and at worst deceptively manipulative to pursue a relationship of any duration merely for the sake of bragging about it (even if that bragging is confined to one or two very close friends.)

I’ve said a time or nine that older men, younger women relationships are problematic — but not always strictly inadvisable — for many reasons. I’ve pointed out too that most student crushes on professors are less about the desirability of the instructor and more about how that professor makes the student feel about himself (or herself), about ideas, about possibilities for life and the world. But all of this doesn’t mean I don’t think a mature young student can’t ask out a relatively young, eminently single, hot assistant professor. Something interesting will happen no matter what the final outcome.

“Affirm and redirect”: how “Smart People” gets older men, younger women exactly right

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on April 22, 2008
in Movies and Older Men & Younger Women
. 1 Comment

The first post I ever wrote on “older men, younger women” was inspired by a movie, Love Song For Bobby Long. The most hits I’ve had on any post so far in 2008 was also movie-inspired: Age is Never Just a Number.

Right before we left on Spring Break, my wife and I went to see Smart People. It was a bit of a disappointment, largely because the two leads (Dennis Quaid and Sarah Jessica Parker) seemed miscast in their roles as a college professor and physician. The two supporting cast members, Juno’s Ellen Page and the sublime Thomas Haden Church, did their best to redeem the film. Church plays “Chuck”, a middle-aged ne’er-do-well who moves in with a widower prof (Quaid) and his overachieving daughter, Vanessa (Page).

Ellen Page is as pitch-perfect as ever as Vanessa, a socially awkward over-achieving young Republican who mothers her father and studies frantically for the SAT. Her monumentally self-absorbed father largely ignores her evident unhappiness — but uncle Chuck doesn’t. Chuck is troubled by his niece’s robotic, joyless behavior, and he starts a concerted campaign to get Vanessa to have fun. He gets her stoned one night, and then another night takes her to a bar. As they leave the bar, a tipsy Vanessa grabs her uncle and kisses him passionately. Chuck pushes her away immediately, horrified that she has misunderstood his interest in her. Much of the rest of the film (and indeed, the best scenes in this mediocre picture are all between Page and Church) is concerned with the way in which Vanessa and Chuck work through their awkwardness engendered by that kiss, and the way in which Vanessa comes to understand what it was and is she means to her uncle. Continue reading ‘“Affirm and redirect”: how “Smart People” gets older men, younger women exactly right’

Another in the Older Men, Younger Women series: sex, power, and redemptive aggression

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on March 17, 2008
in Older Men & Younger Women
. 20 Comments

I still get letters about the Older Men, Younger Women topic. A very long one came in last week from a 27 year-old woman, “Elizabeth.” Excerpts:

I wanted to write to ask about my desires to be with older men. I am now 27, and I realize you were more concerned about women in their teens to early twenties, but this desire is nothing new. I have always been attracted to men much older than me (with regards to my age- ie a 5 year difference isn’t a big deal at 27, but when I was 17 and was talking to a 22 year old it was significant). I am wondering if this is a pattern that is a result of being the victim of sexual abuse/molestation? When I was 14 my first sexual experience EVER was with a man who was related thru marriage- an uncle married to one of my mother’s sisters. I would imagine he was in his thirtees at the time, but strangely enough I don’t think I ever felt like I had major issues over the matter. There was nothing obvious. No lingering feelings of guilt, no nightmares. I never think about it, which is why I wonder if my desire to be with older men is my brain’s subliminal way of “fixing” the matter- I have heard of a couple of defense mechanism victims of sexual abuse or rape will employ. One is “identify with aggressor” which I think I may have done for a period during my life.

Elizabeth shares a colorful history of sexual relationships with older men. Her “pattern”, if there is one, is to be in relationships with older men who don’t habitually pursue younger women. As she puts it, she “relished the attention and basked in the glow” that came from men who were, it seems, surprised by her evident interest in them. Elizabeth is now starting “something new” with a man of 53, almost twice her age. He’s interested, but a little stunned by her forthrightness and aggressiveness; she writes that “I enjoy my new man’s flustered reactions.” Continue reading ‘Another in the Older Men, Younger Women series: sex, power, and redemptive aggression’

“The rights of desire”: a professor-student romance makes the local news

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 25, 2008
in Marriage, Older Men & Younger Women, Sexual ethics and transformation, Student crushes and Teaching
. 13 Comments

This story popped up on my radar screen today: Professor, ex-student tie the knot.

Muata Kamdibe and Crystal Domingues aren’t looking for anyone’s stamp of approval - not from their resistant families, curious colleagues, or a gossip-prone public.

For two months, the couple managed to keep their romance a secret from everyone, knowing the kinds of whispers and judgments their 18-year age difference would spawn - as well as the fact that Kamdibe, 36, a Rio Hondo College professor, first met Domingues, 18, when she was a student in his class last fall.

But it all publicly tumbled out two weeks ago, when Domingues was reported missing by her family, then tracked down by a private detective Feb. 7 to Kamdibe’s home in Irvine.

Well, that’s one way to start off with the in-laws. Continue reading ‘“The rights of desire”: a professor-student romance makes the local news’

Age is never just a number: on “Juno” and covert older men/younger women boundary violation

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on January 14, 2008
in Favorite Posts 2008, Movies and Older Men & Younger Women
. 61 Comments

My wife and I finally got around to seeing Juno this past Saturday night. It was as delightful as promised. Other bloggers have already dealt with the issues of sexual agency and teen pregnancy raised by the film, and the question of whether the picture carries a subtle “pro-life” message has been widely debated. I’m not going to add to the fine commentary already out there. But I was struck by one aspect of the film that dealt with an oft-posted on topic here, older men/younger women relationships.

Warning: mild plot spoiler below the fold. Continue reading ‘Age is never just a number: on “Juno” and covert older men/younger women boundary violation’

Older men, younger women again: a note on the Kucinich marriage

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on October 9, 2007
in Marriage, Older Men & Younger Women and Politics
. 17 Comments

Look! A post on something other than reverse snobbery or bondage for Christians! Rejoice!

My old friend Bill reads this blog, and has noted my penchant for taking fairly strong stances on certain subjects, like the sinfulness of wearing fur and the generally problematic nature of older-men, younger-women relationships.

Bill recently went to a fundraising event where he briefly met Dennis Kucinich and his wife, Elizabeth Harper. Dennis turned 61 yesterday; his wife Elizabeth is, as many folks know, more than three decades his junior. (Dennis’ campaign page is here, and his wife’s page is here.).

Bill, knowing of both my general disapproval of significant age-gap relationships and my deep fondness for the only fellow vegan in congress, writes:

I see lots of deserved kvelling about Mr. Kucinich but nary a word about his being married to a woman thirty years younger than he is. Plenty of paragraphs devoted to that subject in general but nothing about those two. Heck, I don’t think I saw even one word about Mrs. Kucinich at all. So what’s the deal? Does Kucinich get a free pass from you because of his outstanding professional record? Or are you so taken with them as a couple that the age difference doesn’t look so bad on them? Or do you secretly think it all depends on the two people in question?

Like a lot of folks, I raised an eyebrow when I heard about the Kucinich marriage two years ago. 31 years is not an insignificant age gap, after all. At the same time, as I’ve made clear in my many posts on this subject, it’s not wise to subject all age-disparate relationships to rigid hard and fast rules, save when the younger partner involved is under 21. Continue reading ‘Older men, younger women again: a note on the Kucinich marriage’

Summer Reprint: Letting go of the Rescuer: a response to Charles on men, “damsels in distress” and pro-feminism

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on August 16, 2007
in Feminism, Men and Masculinity, Older Men & Younger Women, Relationships and Sexual ethics and transformation
. 12 Comments

I’m still on summer semi-hiatus, and will be back to regular posting by August 22.

The following was originally published October 18, 2005.

Gosh, I’m now averaging two letters a week from folks who have found this blog by searching for information about “older men, younger women” on the ‘net. Usually, I get letters from young women who are attracted to older men, or older men defending their interest in younger women, but yesterday’s letter from “Charles” was different. Here’s some of it:

The experience I am going through is a difficult one. I was very closely
involved with a (now) 23 year old for four years. We broke up this past
spring, largely because she was going to attend graduate school in another
country for several years and had not been faithful to me in the past. No
trust meant no relationship anymore, despite my great affection toward her
and bond with her. We still remain friends and I look out for her best interests,
which is why I was so distraught to hear that a 35 year old had
asked her out at a bar and she said yes.

I agree with you that, despite exceptions to the rule, younger women
dating older men is not very healthy. She is a beautiful girl who has no
trouble finding dates, so its not like this is the only opportunity she
has. She doesn’t seem to find it to be a big deal and kind of flippantly
says that guys are five years less mature than their age and girls are
five years more mature, so the ages (in her mind) kind of equal out. But
I have to disagree with that. His formative, adult experiences are much
more developed than hers. If you use the age of 18 as a baseline for
‘adulthood,’ than he’s been an adult about four times longer than she has.

She also has had many of the problems that many young women interested in
older men seem to have, as you alluded to. Her father was almost
completely dysfunctional as a human being and was not a substantive part
of her childhood. She was raped at 13 to lose her virginity and she has
had a breathtaking number of sexual partners in an equally breathtaking
variety of ways, all of whom (with the exceptions of a few close
boyfriends) she didn’t like.

Should I not feel concerned for her? Should I not feel angry toward her?,
because I do. I do not have a problem with her dating and I want her to
be happy, but I am convinced this is not the way to achieve that
happiness.

Charles writes an interesting and heartfelt note, and it’s the sort of thing I’ve heard from other young men on this subject.

First off, there’s nothing wrong with being angry at someone who has cheated on you. Anger, particularly when it is expressed in healthy rather than destructive ways, is a normal response to injury. Once that anger festers into enduring resentment, however, it’s a good deal more problematic.

I’ve known quite a few men who share with Charles what can only be described as a powerful desire to “rescue” damsels in distress. The tell-tale signs of a man with a “knight in shining armor” complex are clear: he “looks out for her best interests”, and he expresses deep — and perhaps justified — anxiety about her early experiences and their impact on her subsequent sexual choices. I’m sure Charles is a very nice young man, and I wish him well. But ultimately, I think he’s having a difficult time separating genuine love and concern from a desire to control! Continue reading ‘Summer Reprint: Letting go of the Rescuer: a response to Charles on men, “damsels in distress” and pro-feminism’

Jack and Jill again: a response to Father Figure about mentoring and attraction

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on June 28, 2007
in Emotional and Sexual Boundaries, Favorite posts 2007, Mentoring, Older Men & Younger Women, Teaching, Youth and Youth ministry
. 3 Comments

It’s genuinely flattering that I get several e-mails a week from people who have read my posts and are asking me for input on issues ranging from chinchilla care to student crushes to youth ministry to older men/younger women relationships. I want to make it clear to those who do write me, however, that I assume all unsolicited email is “bloggable”. I am not able to offer replies or advice outside of the format of this blog. I will, of course, change names and details in order to protect the writer’s anonymity. That seems a fair policy.

Got an email last week from a fellow who calls himself Father Figure. Father Figure is married, and though he doesn’t specify his age, seems to be forty-something (I take great delight in calling myself a forty-something these days). He writes:

You seem to be very perceptive on the area of
crushes developing on mentor/father figures.

How does the mentor/father
figure disengage from such a relationship as he sees
himself being attracted to the young woman [half his
age!] who’s paying so much attention to him?

The last three years have been among the worst of
my life, mainly from being unable to forget about the
attention that this young woman gave to me for a few
months, but also from incredible guilt for the way
that I totally broke off contact with her. Even now I
tend to feel that if I see a mutual friend, I should
casually inquire about her, not so much because I want
to know, but out of concern that if the conversation
gets relayed back to her, it will hurt her that I
didn’t even ask about her. Her own father died or
left the home when she was a young girl, and it seems
that in some ways she related to me as a sort of
“safe” father-type figure. The problem was that I
fell for her, and so I found the only way to deal with
my feelings was to stop contact. But my breaking off
contact [when we had been fairly close friends] must
have come across to her as rejection of her as a
person. Hence, my profound feeling of guilt.

It’s a painful situation for Father Figure, and clearly equally painful (if not more so) for the young woman whom he has pushed out of his life.

My first thought is that those of us who do enjoy mentoring young people have an obligation to set strong boundaries with ourselves. I meet with and mentor a small group of young people; some are former students and some are former “youth groupers.” I mentor both men and women. One of my chief jobs as a mentor is to never, ever forget that my relationship with my mentees is one of mutual respect, but not one of mutual support. I am there for them in a way that they cannot and should not be there for me. In my relationships with my mentees, I make very little mention of my private life (less, in most cases, than I do on this blog). When I do talk about myself, it is usually only in order to share an anecdote from my past that may prove helpful to the mentee.

The mentor/mentee boundary is not as rigid as that between therapist and patient. No one is on a couch, and there’s no strict psychological protocol to observe. But I always remember that this young man or this young woman with whom I am sitting in my office or drinking coffee under a tree here on campus is there as an opportunity for me to be of service. My mentees are not potential “best friends forever”. That doesn’t mean I don’t like them, and heck, it doesn’t preclude me from starting to care very deeply for some of them. I love working with young people; it gives me a great sense of purpose and satisfaction to do so. But my students are not my dearest friends, and I don’t confide in my mentees as they confide in me. That’s not about power, that’s about respect for boundaries.

I wrote a long time ago about the story of Michael Gee, an adjunct professor and journalist who was fired from his teaching position after posting to a website his feeling that one of his female students was “incredibly hot.” As part of that post, I wrote about how we as teachers and mentors can respond to students whose bodies might be distracting to us. I wrote about an old student of mine named “Jack”, whose cigarette stench and body odor made our office hours together difficult; I wrote about “Jill”, whose unusually revealing clothing posed a different challenge. Jack and Jill were wonderful students, solid “A” students, both interested in having me mentor them. Jack’s smell was burdensome; Jill’s state of near-perpetual underdressedness posed a similar problem. With both students, my job was the same: to not allow their bodies to become my focus. I made a conscious effort to be there for Jack in all of his malodorousness, and to keep my eyes on Jill’s face. I’m not an instructor in grooming, fashion, or deportment; if I am only able to be present for those who are bathed and reasonably covered up, then I am a piss-poor mentor and teacher and ought not to be in this job. I learned a lot from Jack and Jill.

Perhaps it’s because I’m happily married, perhaps it’s because I’ve worked so hard to establish excellent boundaries, perhaps it’s because I’m in my forties now — but for whatever reason, I don’t any longer have the trouble “Father Figure” has had with this woman he mentored. That’s the result of some hard work on my part, and also the result of being willing to ask for grace to come into my life and guide my mentoring relationships.

With the Jacks and Jills of this world, there’s a prayer I use. It was one I learned many years ago, and it has served me in good stead. I use the same prayer with the potentially attractive as with the potentially hostile:

“God, show me this person not as I see them but as you see them. Help me to be for them what I am called by you to be. Remove from me my fears and my selfish desires, and show me how to love them as you love them”.

Yeah, we have a problem with singulars and plurals here, but you get the point. I really do use that prayer, though much less often than I used to. God has been faithful to me, and I can say that when I have prayed that prayer sincerely, it has always been answered. I have never had to break off a relationship with a mentee because I was worried about my own growing feelings of attraction towards him or her.

Does that make me better than “Father Figure”, who did choose to break off his mentoring relationship with a younger woman to whom he was increasingly drawn? No, not really. It was far better for him to abrogate their relationship than to act on his feelings. But while seducing her would have been a profound betrayal of his commitment to her (and, of course, to his marriage), breaking off their contact (which had become important to her) without telling her why is a serious form of abandonment. There’s a general rule in working with much younger people, even when they are in their twenties: if you as a mentor cut off contact or withdraw from them, they will almost always assume that it was something they did. They will very rarely conclude that the problem was with the mentor; they will assume that they did something to drive him or her away. They may feel ashamed or guilty without quite knowing what they’ve done. It’s a serious wound, and I’ve seen it inflicted many a time.

Father Figure inquires as to what he should do. In the best case scenario, he would be able to resume his mentoring relationship with this young woman, taking responsibility for keeping his own feelings and desires strictly in check (and asking for spiritual help in order to do so.) Given that the young woman is an adult, his next best option — but not the best — is to be candid with her about his reasons for terminating their time together. He’ll have to be very emphatic that the responsibility is his and his alone, and that she did nothing wrong. It’ll be hurtful, but she’ll at least have (oh, overused word) the beginnings of some closure. The worst thing to do would be to continue to be distant and unvailable without giving a reason why.

I am absolutely certain that I will not cross a line with my students and youth groupers, either in act or in fantasy. I am confident that my intent will remain clear and my goals pure. Is this hubris? No, because I don’t rest this certainty on my own will alone. I’m a mortal human being, and I know all too well how quickly my own unchecked desires can run riot. My confidence lies in my faith in a faithful God, a God who will not give me any challenge I cannot handle if I ask for His help. I also have faith in my peers who hold me accountable, who ask me questions about my motives, who watch me. If I seem to be crossing a line, they’ll gently inquire and remind me of where it is that my priorities lie, what my obligations are.

If I can only mentor the unattractive, the well-groomed, the polite and unchallenging, I’m not doing my job. (Of course, the reverse is true: if I seek out only the beautiful and the brilliant to work with, something else is amiss!) If I were to find my own feelings getting in the way of my work with a mentee, I am confident that I would be given the strength to overcome those feelings. And by overcoming, I don’t just mean the strength to not act upon them. I mean the strength to eradicate them altogether. My wife is the human being in whose company I am happiest. If I were to be more excited about spending time with a friend or a mentee than with my wife, that would be a colossal red flag. And I am prayerfully, quietly confident that God would give me the strength to redirect my desires and my thoughts themselves if I asked Him to. But if for some reason that sustenance didn’t come, then I would have to terminate the mentoring relationship.

A long response to “Debra” about older men, younger women

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on June 25, 2007
in Older Men & Younger Women
. 124 Comments

As I’ve mentioned several times, I get more email about my “older men, younger women” posts than all the other things I blog about put together. (Student crushes is a distant second, and chinchillas are third).

I got a long letter a couple of weeks ago from a woman in her late forties named “Debra” (not her real name). She tells a by-now very familiar story:

Now, here’s my situation. Within the past couple of years I’ve become
aware of a man a couple of years older than me. From what I can see,
this man is very much like me in many ways–in fact, so much so that
he could be my male twin.

I’m attracted to him. From a distance, I find him intelligent, thoughtful, humorous, honest,
emotionally open, openminded, and kind. And, up until last year, he
was like me in one other important way: he had no relationship. He was
an intelligent, witty man in his later forties, yet he had never been
married and made frequent complaints in public about how all of his attempts
at relationships with women (and he made it clear without using a
sledgehammer that yes, he was attracted to the opposite sex) had ended
in disaster.

Then, last year, suddenly something changed. Out of the blue, Mr. Sad
Sack began seeing a woman. A woman who lived on the opposite coast
from him. Two and a half months
after they began dating, she packed up all her belongings and crossed
the country to move in with him. As of now, they have been together
for a year, and have lived together for ten and a half months

Why do I come to you to ask you what you think of all this? Simply
this: He is 47; she is 22.

This is a long post, so more below the fold. Continue reading ‘A long response to “Debra” about older men, younger women’

A few random notes, and another in the “older men/younger women” series

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on January 15, 2007
in Age and Older Men & Younger Women
. 52 Comments

On this holiday MLK Monday, I note that 2007 marks 39 years since the great civil rights leader was slain. He was 39 when he was killed, so the space since his passing now matches the span of his all-too-short life. In the last few months, I note, I have “passed” Dr. King; as of last autumn, I am now older than he was when he was slain.

A glorious but very chilly run this morning. Lots of frozen patches on the mountain, and no access to water in my usual spots — the pipes had frozen!

My wife and I were up in Santa Barbara last night; saw my sister, who writes about and participates in the local arts scene, dancing in this production. I freely admit to not “getting” most modern dance, though out of family loyalty, I am willing to be a loyal patron. When I was growing up, the term “middle-brow” was used to condemn those who preferred their art safe and unchallenging. But after decades around what is supposed to be avant-garde, I confess that I am a cultural philistine when it comes to music and dance. I don’t get most modern dance, and I don’t get John Cage. (I’m a bit more adventurous with visual art; I do have a passion for Rothko and Kandinsky.) Still, we had a good time.

And congrats to the Pasadena City College Lancers women’s basketball team, the only undefeated team in California.

Anyhoo…

One of my good buddies from the boxing gym had a date this weekend. He’s a year or two my junior, and he went out to dinner with an 18 year-old gal whom he met when she waited on his table at a local restaurant. He knows my views on older men dating younger women (see the various posts in that category on the sidebar), and I have not hesitated to take him to task (with good humor) for this. Ours is a relationship that can withstand some serious disagreements.

My friend said something I hear a lot from my peers who want to date women half their age: “You know, she seems very mature for her age. She’s not like other eighteen year-olds.” I hear this constantly from those who want to defend the practice of going out with much younger women; while they are often happy to concede that most women still in late adolescence ought to be off-limits, they invariably suggest that the one in whom they happen to be interested is an exception to the rule. “She’s an old soul”; “She’s very wise”; “Guys her own age don’t interest her.”

I’m not about to suggest that some young women aren’t more “grown-up” than their peers. As many, many young women who have commented on my previous posts have lamented, they find the guys in their own peer group to be immature, unchallenging, unattractive. They often report feeling alienated from peers of both sexes, claiming to have felt “more comfortable around adults” for years. In other words, they feel themselves to be exceptions to otherwise sensible rules. Their longing for someone older, whom they imagine will share their interests and offer them more opportunities to grow and learn, is understandable. What is less understandable is that so many older men rely on the young woman’s self-described exceptionalism to justify a sexual or romantic relationship with her.

Newsflash, folks: most bright, sensitive adolescents go through periods where they feel profoundly at odds with the majority of their peers. They are unmoved by the concerns of boys and girls their own age; what fascinates other kids bores these more thoughtful ones. They see their peers as vapid and shallow (they are occasionally right), and they imagine (alas, often wrongly) that older folks (often older men in particular) are more interesting, more sensitive, better-equipped for relationship. I’ve worked with enough teenagers to have met dozens and dozens of young men and women who are ardently convinced that they are exceptional, perhaps even unique. And though they are usually smarter than the average bear, their sense of their own inner maturity is frequently exaggerated. And a wise older person, be he a teacher or a prospective partner, can’t take these protestations of emotional sophistication at face value!

Of course, my buddy has his own corollary to all of this. A bit younger than I am, on the cusp of his late thirties, he is adamant that he is “younger” than his chronological age. He enjoys clubbing as much as he did a decade ago, for example. He sees his peer group (I’m a prime example he says) as increasingly made up of the “settled”. Though he talks of wanting to get married and have kids “someday”, he’s still in no hurry — and he’s eager to avoid dating women for whom enduring commitment is part of their near-term plans. His sense of himself as still young, playful, and promising leads him to his own sense of exceptionalism. Just as the gal he took out on Saturday night isn’t “typical”, he too sees himself as having little in common with his own chronological age. While other men our age don’t keep up on the latest music or the hippest clubs, for example, he’s on top of these things; it makes “sense”, he claims, for him to spend his time with much younger women.

I’ve given him my standard stump speech about the fact that women our age will challenge him to grow, while starry-eyed gals barely out of adolescence will be more likely to believe his bull. Like most men I challenge on this one, he protests indignantly that he’s up for any challenge, and that a “really exceptional eighteen year-old” can push him just as hard as a woman twice that age. I’m quite confident he genuinely believes what he’s saying. But the fact that he’s being sincere doesn’t mean he isn’t deceiving himself. And his self-deception keeps him from facing the fact that chronological age imposes obligations on us all: the call to transform and grow is not optional, it is not given merely to the few.

One of the things that bothers me so much about those who defend older-men/younger women relationships is that these folks insist on seeing themselves as unusual exceptions to some fairly hard and fast rules about the trajectory of our lives. A man in his late thirties flattering himself with the conceit that he’s still a youngster, or a frustrated, curious, young woman in her late teens who feels like a wise old soul, both are confident that they are unique, or nearly so. Their sense of being different means that conventional wisdom — which, for reasons I’ve gone over again and again, warns against older men dating women in their late teens and early twenties — ought not apply to them.

It’s a free country for those who are of age, of course, and my friend is allowed to date a girl born the year Ronald Reagan left the presidency if he chooses. I’m going to be his buddy either way; I don’t make my affection conditional on the politics or lifestyle choices of my family or friends. But I’ve heard protests like his — and those of the gal he’s dating — more than once. And from what I’ve seen over and over, what spending time together will eventually teach them both is that they are each less exceptional than they had imagined. Whether they come to that realization with or without concomitant heartache remains to be seen. But while she who cannot remember the first Gulf War has reason to be foolish, he who is old enough to remember the Iran Hostage Crisis has no such excuse.