Archive for the 'Older Men & Younger Women' Category

Flirtation, adultery, student-teacher boundaries — again!

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on April 29, 2010
in Infidelity, Older Men & Younger Women and Student crushes and professor-student relationships
. 14 Comments

I get a fair number of emails from college students, almost always young women, who found this blog after having googled the phrase “student crushes”. I reposted the piece that I did on Tuesday after receiving two such emails at the beginning of the week, both from women who had crushes on older, married, male professors.

Let’s review: professors should not date students who are enrolled in their classes, for some excellent reasons. We shouldn’t suborn adultery for some equally important reasons, as I wrote in January ‘09 in a post called Helping Him Become What He Pledged Not to Be.

And while I don’t have a problem with professors dating their former students (though the ideal would be that a student would be sufficiently “former” as to have left the campus entirely), I do have a very serious problem with decentralizing the relationship status of the parties in this discussion. I think we can have a serious discussion about whether or not professor-student romantic relationships are invariably unethical and a bad idea. I take that negative position, but know that others — in good faith and at times with very thoughtful reasons — can take the opposite one. But I don’t think that it’s possible to make a compelling case in defense of adultery. While it is possible to critique monogamy as an institution, it isn’t ethically viable to defend dishonesty. And at its heart, the sinfulness of cheating is not in the sex, but in the lie it creates. As I wrote fifteen months ago:

One of the great tragedies of infidelity lies not in what it does to others but what it teaches us about ourselves — that we are fundamentally untrustworthy. And it is hard to be happy while living with the dissonance between one’s language and one’s life.

So let me be clear. I’m happy to chat with folks — in “real life” or through this blog, email, social media and so forth — about the ethical and human issues surrounding this topic in which I am deeply invested. What I’m not interested in doing is co-signing any behavior that dishonors another person’s monogamous commitment. Relationships can end, of course, and romantic statuses can shift. But when we’re dealing with people who have pledged fidelity to others, we have an obligation to do all that we can to help them honor that commitment. Honoring the commitment to fidelity can include breaking up prior to sleeping with someone else. But it cannot include idle flirtation, emotional affairs, or outright seduction.

Older married men who flirt with younger women do so, generally, for ego validation. The longing to know that one still has “it” can be overwhelming, particularly for a fellow who hasn’t really dealt with his own fears about ageing and mortality. But whether he is a politician or a plumber, he needs to grasp that young women — heck, women of any age — are not yardsticks with which to measure the sexual appeal he longs to know has not diminished. When the greying Romeo is a married professor flirting with his own students, that behavior moves from being unfortunate and unwise to reckless and irresponsible.

And that’s a message that apparently needs frequent repeating.

Older Men, Younger Women, and Older Women’s Sexual Invisibility: a response to Rachel

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on April 07, 2010
in Favorite Posts 2010 and Older Men & Younger Women
. 58 Comments

I’ve been meaning to respond to some of the questions raised in the thread below this post, particularly those raised by Rachel. In this comment, Rachel turns away from the narrow issue of professor-student affairs to the broader issue of older men, younger women relationships, challenging what she sees as my refusal to see younger women’s potential for agency. Rachel asks:

And why is it so terrible it needs effuse apology that a man enjoys feeling virile and brilliant as he enhances the intellectual and sexual life of a younger woman surrounded by men her age who don’t know what they want out of life, are still selfish in bed so can’t (or won’t expend the effort to) pleasure her the way she deserves? In many ways, May-December romances can revitalize the lives of both parties involved.

Let’s agree to disagree about whether there ought to be blanket rules against professors sleeping with students whom they are currently supervising. (I think there ought to be, Rachel and a few other commenters aren’t quite so sure.) Let’s also stipulate that when we refer to “May-December” relationships, we’re talking about relationships between women Rachel’s age (25) and men two or three decades her senior (she mentions men 30 years older than herself). Is there a reason why 25 year-old Rachel and 50 year-old Ludwig shouldn’t have an affair, one in which Ludwig “enhances Rachel’s intellectual and sexual life” while she helps him to feel “virile and brilliant”?

Look, I’m not the sex police. I’m not going to stop age-disparate couples on the street and write them citations for violating what I regard as an acceptable chronological difference. I know full well that relationships between older men and younger women have worked quite well for both parties, even when the age gap is as significant as a quarter-century. And of course, from a psychological standpoint, I think a safe assumption about these relationships is that the potential for damage decreases as the younger woman’s age increases. I’m more concerned about a 30 year-old man dating a 20 year-old woman than I am about a 25 year-old woman dating a 40 year-old man, even though the gap in the latter relationship is larger.

That said, even if the relationship between Rachel and Ludwig is mutually fulfilling, that relationship doesn’t take place in a vacuum. When the happy pair stroll the streets or canoodle in sidewalk cafés, others will observe them. Now, it’s true that we shouldn’t let societal disapproval condition our actions. If Rachel were white and Ludwig were black, they might meet with considerable hostility, particular in certain communities. That wouldn’t be a good reason for the two of them to avoid having a relationship. Sometimes people need to be discomfited; sometimes people need to be challenged to rethink their assumptions.

But we also live in a culture in which older men/younger women relationships have a way of reinforcing the sexual invisibility of older women. Rachel’s words are telling; she implies that an older man might feel more “virile and brilliant” with a younger woman. The unspoken but obvious assumption is that he might have a more difficult time feeling that way with a woman his own age. I touched on that in a 2006 post:

So many older men hit on younger women for reasons that have little to do with sex and everything to do with a profound desire to reassure ourselves that we’ve still got “it.” “It” isn’t just physical attractiveness; “It” is the whole masculine package of youth, vitality, charm, sex appeal, and, above all else, possibility. When a 19 year-old flirts with a 39 year-old , it feels like the world is reassuring the fella that there’s still time, there are still new opportunities, still a chance to be young.

Rachel seems to be asking, “what’s wrong with reassuring the man he still has “It”? And my answer is that that it is based on a fundamental devaluing of the older man’s female peers. I always advise younger women who date older men to ask their lovers how they feel about women their own age. Frequently, the older lads will complain about the ways in which older women are “bitter”, “demanding”, “jaded”, or have “let themselves go” (meaning that they have tired of trying to live up to an unattainable ideal.) Whether the Rachels of the world are conscious of it or not, they are being set up in opposition to the older women that they themselves will soon be. And while I would not go so far as to say that the Rachels are taking from older women what is rightfully theirs, I think it’s fair to say that when Rachel sees it as normal and healthy that older men feel more “virile and brilliant” with younger women, she’s directly contributing (as are her lovers) to the depreciation of older women’s worth. Continue reading ‘Older Men, Younger Women, and Older Women’s Sexual Invisibility: a response to Rachel’

“I just cannot turn it off”: on not wanting to be attracted to younger women

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 04, 2010
in Older Men & Younger Women
. 52 Comments

I’ve got a four-hour layover at Heathrow. Why not blog?

I got an email last week from “Jake”:

I was very much attracted to your blog writings on Older Men and Younger Women as this issue has always been on my mind. I am a 25 yr old guy, and for quite some time, I often find myself attracted to 16-18 yr old girls. As I find the age gap to still be too big (university graduate vs. high school almost graduate), I would very much like to not be attracted to girls that age, but it seems like I cannot just turn it off. None of this will matter to me once the girls hit 20, but I am wondering what to do about it now as it is difficult for me to ignore such an attraction and wanting the friendship. Any advice on what should be done here?

There’s quite a bit to unpack in Jake’s short note. First off, I think it’s commendable that he realizes that the age gap of 25 and 16 is “too big”; if only more men Jack’s age (and older) realized the same. And I suspect that Jack can self-regulate, knowing that his desires are not irresistible imperatives. On the other hand, he’s troubled by the desires themselves, and that’s a bit trickier.

I’ve regularly made the case that we have the capacity to transform ourselves and reshape our libidos; I’ve argued consistently that our sexual identities are more fluid and more malleable than we like to believe. Most folks think that’s a sound argument when it comes to suggesting, as I do (and in a moment, will again) when we’re talking about redirecting sexual attraction away from someone with whom the age gap is too great. Ideologically, the danger of this argument is that it dovetails a bit too neatly with the religious right’s view that homosexuality can be “cured”. I’m not interested in revisiting that issue, save to say that I’ve always believed that the case against so-called “reparative therapy” for gays and lesbians is not that it can’t work, but that it tries to fix something that isn’t broken. (My objections are on the grounds of ethics, not efficacy.) And with that out of the way, let me get back to Jake’s question.

First of all, Jake needs to see that he lives in a culture which works very hard to condition him to see girls of 16 and 17 as being at the pinnacle of desirability. Pornography, which he may or may not view, has long had as one of its most lucrative niches the so-called “barely legal” sector, featuring young women of 18 or 19 who look two or three years younger. The modeling industry tends to develop superstars when they are that age. One notes that Ringo Starr was in his mid-thirties when he had a major hit with “You’re Sixteen, You’re Beautiful, and You’re Mine.” And though the arrest once again of Roman Polanski has demonstrated an admirable move towards a greater recognition of the damage done to teen girls by older males (many have pointed out how far we’ve come from the more predatory Seventies), courts can’t quickly undo the toxic fetishization of adolescent girls.

Jake isn’t a victim — adults are volunteers, children are victims — but he can acknowledge that his sexual desires have been shaped by an unhealthy culture. Those who misunderstand evolutionary psychology like to suggest that it’s “natural” for older men to be drawn to teen girls because of fertility issues, ignoring the reality that for many 16 and 17 year-olds, pregnancies are often much higher-risk than they will be a few years later. Claims of “biological imperatives” are nothing more than prurience hiding behind the cloak of science. Yet the influence of popular culture is real — and Jake has been raised to see teen girls as the zenith of desirability. It’s not easy to undo that programming, but it’s certainly possible.

Part of what Jake also needs to see is that, as I’ve pointed out many times before, the attraction to the very young is part of a fear of dealing with the demands of adult women. Teenage girls may appear sexually mature, and they may have very real libidos. But despite their not-infrequent claims to the contrary, the overwhelming majority of adolescents don’t have a very good understanding of their own inner terrain. Though they imagine that they are exceptionally intuitive (many young women who do have sexual relationships with older men overestimate their own maturity), few 17 year-olds have the vocabulary and the experience and the courage to engage as an equal with an older guy. And they almost invariably don’t have nearly as developed a “bullshit detector”. Teenagers wear cynicism as an affectation — their naiveté is always there, concealed behind truculence or feigned apathy or ironic detachment or sexual assertiveness. Bottom line: women Jake’s age will be much clearer on what they want; girls of 16 or 17 will be much more eager to please and have a much harder time setting boundaries and limits with someone they care for. And though Jake might not like to consider it so, there’s no question that for a great many men, the sexual fascination with much younger women lies in the not-entirely-incorrect assumption that they will be less demanding and easier to manipulate than their older sisters. Continue reading ‘“I just cannot turn it off”: on not wanting to be attracted to younger women’

All age-disparate love affairs are not the same: why I prefer “cougars” to “silver foxes”

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on October 14, 2009
in GLBTQ, Older Men & Younger Women and Older women and younger men
. 15 Comments

I’ve written quite a bit about the older man/younger woman dynamic on this blog. (See archives on that topic and on the somewhat related topic of student crushes.) I’ve generally taken a dim view of age-disparate heterosexual relationships in which the male partner is substantially older than the female one, and in which the woman is still quite young (say, under 25 or so). Put simply, the potential problems in older men/younger women relationships seem to diminish based less upon the actual number of years in between the partners and more upon the age of the gal involved. I’m more concerned about an eighteen year-old woman and a thirty year-old man than I am about a thirty year-old woman and a fifty-five year-old man, even though the latter relationship has twice the number of years in between the partners. Read through the archives for more explanation of my position.

I’ve written virtually nothing about age-disparate relationships between same-sex partners, of course, and very little about the increasingly celebrated older woman/younger man pairing. A superficial concern with consistency would suggest that my feelings about all older/younger relationships ought to be the same, regardless of the sex or the sexual orientation of the partners involved. But I think a compelling case can be made that older women/younger men relationships are much less problematic than their reverse, and that the same is true of same-sex age-disparate couplings.

We don’t fall in love, or fall into bed, in a vacuum. Our desires are heavily shaped by the culture, as is our sense of how power is negotiated in sexual relationships. Patriarchal rules about gender roles show a surprising and depressing resilience; ask many young feminists of both sexes who, despite their deep ideological commitment to egalitarianism, struggle to resist social pressure to conform to traditional ideas about what a man and a woman should do in heterosexual relationships.

The older man/younger woman dynamic reinforces patriarchal conventions; the older woman/younger man dynamic subverts them. This doesn’t mean that traditional roles can’t emerge in older women/younger men relationships. I did write once about the notion of older woman as teacher and initiator, and the exasperation many women feel at being asked to “mother” men. Several folks pointed out that plenty of women are forced to take on mothering roles to male partners their own age or older. That tendency towards a kind of uxorious helplessness that afflicts so many men in their romantic relationships with wives and girlfriends can emerge, it seems, at any age and with any woman. The key is that far fewer women than men generally want to take on the “teaching” role. Women may eroticize youth and vigor in younger men, but they rarely are turned on by displays of ignorance or uncertainty; high-brow Western literature and low-brow pornography are filled with countless examples of men being aroused by much younger women who either “play dumb” — or are the genuine article.

Please understand, I’m not saying that every older woman/younger man relationship is inherently progressive while every older man/younger woman coupling is oppressive and reactionary. A great many young women do exercise great agency in relationships with older men. But there’s no escaping the reality that the potential for abuse and exploitation is likely to be much higher in an age-disparate relationship where it is the man who is the elder of the lovers. We must note, too, that we live in a world where men are seen as growing both more “visible” and more powerful as they age — while women, past a certain age, are either desexualized or mocked. “Cougar” was not coined as a compliment; “silver fox” was.

Same-sex relationships can replicate unhealthy dynamics from the dominant culture. But by their very nature, same-sex relationships “subvert the dominant paradigm” in a very healthy and important way. A romantic relationship between two men and two women reminds us that biology alone isn’t destiny, and that while a certain degree of complementarity is surely present in any enduring relationship, that complementarity doesn’t require radically different genitalia. The age-disparate relationship, while certainly quite common in gay and lesbian communities, doesn’t reinforce an unhealthy norm. Even a wealthy older man with a beautiful young (but broke) “boy toy” is a fundamentally distinct phenomenon from that of a wealthy older man with his hot young girlfriend. The latter relationship reminds us all of women’s relative powerlessness — and of older women’s disposability — in a unique and infinitely more damaging way.

Critics on this blog frequently accuse me of double standards, and of being harder on men. By noting that, all things considered, older men/younger women relationships are more problematic than any combination of partners of a different age, I open myself up to that familiar charge. Yet it’s simply absurd to pretend that we have, even now, achieved full equality for gays and lesbians; it is equally untrue that women, despite the tremendous advances of the past half-century, don’t still get the short end of the stick in virtually ever area of human activity. No matter how well-intentioned the parties involved, every older man/younger woman sexual connection sends a clear and visible signal to the outside world that the patriarchal norms are left untouched; every older woman/younger man bond sends the exact opposite signal. This doesn’t mean a good feminist can’t be involved with an older man, or a pro-feminist man with a younger woman. But it does mean that they will have to work twice as hard as anyone else to keep unhealthy cultural discourses out of their relationship.

Heather Corinna on “your older boyfriend”

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on March 03, 2009
in Links and Older Men & Younger Women
. 20 Comments

The splendid sex educator Heather Corinna put up a terrific post at Scarleteen on Saturday: Why I Deeply Dislike Your Older Boyfriend. It dovetails very nicely with the ongoing discussion here about older men and younger women relationships, and Corinna writes from the particularly vital perspective of someone who works as closely — if not more so — with young people as I do. She also acknowledges that though rare, healthy age-disparate relationships can and do exist. Here’s my favorite bit of raw truth:

Some of why he’s choosing to be with someone who is not closer to his same age, nearer to his same place in life is so that he doesn’t have to change. The way he acts and the things he does might hurt you, and your age difference and the dynamics being played out in all that may well be doing you real harm. But, the thing is, in order for him to change he’d have to want to do that work, and to want to do that work, he’d have to care at least as much about you as he cares about himself. And chances are good that he just plain doesn’t. I know that hurts like hell, but I also know that so much of why it hurts is because you’re still trying to get blood from a stone rather than kicking the empty rock that he is aside and saving your love for the care of someone who earnestly wants to care for it. They’re out there, I promise: but they are not this guy. Changing this can’t rest on him, because he’s just not going to do it.

Ties in a bit with what I wrote here.

Read the whole thing, and consider contributing to Scarleteen’s fundraising campaign. There are few worthier causes than giving young people accurate, affirming, sensible information about sexuality. And no site on the web does that better than Scarleteen. Join me in supporting their invaluable work.

Older Men, Younger Women, and two different speeds towards adulthood

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 23, 2009
in Older Men & Younger Women and Parenting
. 70 Comments

A week ago, I posted a request once again for “older men, younger women” stories. I’ve had several dozen replies, but am still eager for more. In any case, the discussion thread below the post turns to a re-visiting of the old myth about younger women and fertility.

Hector takes the classic traditionalist view: men need to be “older” and women “younger” because of economics and biology. The man needs “time” to grow to the point where he can support a family, while a woman ought to be younger and hence more likely to be fertile. Hector (and the legions who share his views) offer a weird amalgam of evolutionary psychology, biological half-truths, and an unwitting social commentary on how long it takes men to get their acts together in our culture. Hector tells us that he often offers advice to the women in his life to settle down and reproduce sooner rather than later.

“Matey” has a great rejoinder.

I’m in my early forties, my wife in her mid-thirties, and she is on the younger end of first-time mothers in our social circle. We both recognize that there is a very slight decline in fertility for folks our age, along with an equally slight concomitant risk in potential pregnancy complications. That said, we’re also keenly aware of how the “have kids young, before it’s too late” message is one far more rooted in ideology than in biological fact. A culture deeply troubled by women’s independence and ambition has good reason to encourage the young to step onto the “mommy track” as early as possible. Untangling hard fact from misogynistic myth is difficult.

But for the sake of argument, let’s grant that women hoping to have children ought to start early. That still doesn’t explain why they ought to partner with older men (especially given that fertility problems and birth defects — particularly autism and schizophrenia — are much more likely in the children of old dudes). Why not devote energy to fighting the scourge of “guyhood” — the flight from responsibility and commitment that characterizes so many young men’s lives? If you really want your young women married and pregnant early, then push young men to get their acts together sometime before they turn 35. American middle-class male adolescence has turned into a quarter-century project; far too many twenty-something lads are far too hooked on pot, porn, and Playstation to even consider making commitments. A thoughtful social conservative wouldn’t push for age-disparate relationships as part of some divine or natural plan; a thoughtful social conservative would push to accelerate young men’s acceptance of responsibility so that it harmonized neatly with young women’s fertility.

Personally, I think most folks of either sex are better off waiting to have children. One tends to be much more patient, one tends to have worked through more of one’s own insecurities and “issues”, one tends to have more financial resources. (There are myriad exceptions, of course — irresponsible forty-somethings and responsibile twenty-somethings are not unheard of.) It’s also, happily enough, a good way of practicing family size limitation. Extreme experimentation with fertility drugs notwithstanding, women who start to reproduce in their thirties or even early forties are more likely to have only one or two children, thus placing less long-term stress on our planet’s resources.

One thing is clear: whatever you consider the ideal age for reproducing, there is no defensible rationale for arguing that dramatically age-disparate relationships are ideal. Unless, of course, you embrace the lie that men are entitled to enjoy three decades worth of puberty, while their sisters ought to start breeding before the first wrinkles appear.

Older Men, Younger Women Book Proposal Research Questions: UPDATED

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 16, 2009
in Older Men & Younger Women and Writing
. 37 Comments

I noted a few weeks ago that I was interested in hearing from folks with experience in older men/younger women relationships. I mentioned at the time that I wanted to hear from four categories of persons:

1. Women who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially older men, particularly when those relationships began while the women were in their teens or twenties; also, younger women who have had a pattern of attraction to much older men.

2. Men who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially younger women, or who have developed a pattern of attraction to much younger women.

3. Young men who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a female peer’s interest in a much-older man.

4. Women who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a male peer’s interest in a much-younger woman.

Please email me at hbschwyzer@gmail.com with your story.

I didn’t include a questionnaire, because for the purpose of the book narrative stories are much more helpful than interview-style answers. But some folks have asked for more guidance, and I want to accomodate them below the fold. Continue reading ‘Older Men, Younger Women Book Proposal Research Questions: UPDATED’

Call for stories: on my “older men, younger women” project, and a request for assistance

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 02, 2009
in Older Men & Younger Women and Writing
. 3 Comments

Please pass this on to folks who might be interested!

I’m working on a book about older men and younger women, building on something I’ve blogged many, many times. Though I’ve heard from many people over the years, I’d like more true-life stories from folks in any of the following four categories.

1. Women who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially older men, particularly when those relationships began while the women were in their teens or twenties; also, younger women who have had a pattern of attraction to much older men.

2. Men who have been in sexual or romantic relationships with substantially younger women, or who have developed a pattern of attraction to much younger women.

3. Young men who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a female peer’s interest in a much-older man.

4. Women who have felt exasperated, hurt, or confused by a male peer’s interest in a much-younger woman.

I’m interested in stories, but also in the feelings that went with these relationships. All correspondence will be presumed to be publishable, though I will change identifying information. I appreciate any help that folks can give; please distribute this request widely. Every email will receive a response.

Please send emails to hbschwyzer@gmail.com

“Teaching May Be Hazardous to Your Marriage”: Social scientists and the myth of male weakness

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on June 30, 2008
in Academia, Divorce, Myth of Male Weakness, Older Men & Younger Women, Teaching and Youth
. 37 Comments

Reader and blogger Treifalicious sends me a link to this PDF file of a 1999 study on college professors and divorce. Published in the journal of Evolution and Human Behavior, it’s melodramatically entitled Teaching may be hazardous to your marriage.

The abstract:

Kenrick et al.’s experiments demonstrate that men who view photographs of physically attractive women or Playboy centerfolds subsequently find their current mates less physically attractive and become less satisfied with their current relationships. What then would be the
cumulative effect of being exposed to young, attractive women on a daily basis? Would there be any real consequences to the men’s dissatisfaction with their relationships? Secondary school teachers and college professors come in contact with more young women at the peak of their reproductive value than others do. The analysis of a large, representative data set from the United States indicates that, while men in general are less likely to be divorced than women, and secondary school teachers and college professors in general are less likely to be divorced than others, simultaneously being male and being a secondary school teacher or college professor statistically increases the likelihood of being divorced We contend that the contrast effect that Kenrick et al. find in their experiments is cumulative and has real
consequences.

It’s an almost laughable study, save for the fact that it’s, well, so bloody infuriating. Here’s the initial premise:

Few occupations and professions afford greater opportunities to come in contact with
women in their teenage years than teachers in secondary and postsecondary schools. These
teachers experience the cumulative effect of exposure to young, attractive women who are at
their peak reproductive value more acutely than people in most other occupations.

I suppose that’s true enough, though I can’t say I think much of the term “peak reproductive value.” No offense intended to teenage moms out there, but in my experience, those who choose to make babies in their thirties often (not always) have more “valuable” resources (time, patience, finances) than those in their “peak” reproductive years.

But then the study’s authors lose me completely. They note that those who teach are slightly more likely to stay unmarried after they divorce, though the difference with the general population is barely significant. But then this whopper:

We believe that there are two possible interpretations for this finding. First,
subsequent to divorce, male teachers and professors may remain unmarried because they prefer
to pursue a series of affairs with female students without marrying them. Second, they may remain unmarried because, due to the cumulative contrast effect, any adult woman they might meet and date after their divorce would still pale in comparison to the young attractive women with whom they come in daily contact.

“Pale in comparison”? Continue reading ‘“Teaching May Be Hazardous to Your Marriage”: Social scientists and the myth of male weakness’

Asking out Dr. “desperately hot”: a note on students pursuing former professors

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on June 12, 2008
in Older Men & Younger Women, Student crushes and professor-student relationships and Teaching
. 10 Comments

One of my former students has now transferred on to a large university elsewhere in the state. A 22 year-old junior, she took a class this past quarter with what she describes as a “desperately hot” 30 year-old assistant professor. He’s in his first year teaching the best of all possible subjects (history), and according to my former student, he’s said to be “single and straight and very available.”

My former student has read my various postings on student crushes and on older men, younger women relationships. She shot me a message on Facebook this week, asking me whether I thought it would be appropriate for her to ask out “Dr. Desperately Hot” now that the term is over. She’s quite clear that this isn’t just an intellectual crush — she’s interested on, as she puts it “every level.”

Assuming she’s not likely to be his student again, I wrote her a short note telling her, in essence, “Go for it.” An eight year age-gap is not insignificant, but it’s not an insurmountable one. (I admit I would have responded differently had her Dr. DH been 40 instead of 30.) I’m familiar with the campus on which she studies and he teaches; the university policy in place, like that at Pasadena City College, prohibits professors from dating their current students, but says nothing about dating former students who continue to be enrolled in other instructors’ classes.

I got a follow-up note:

Cool. So, another question: how do I ask him out??? Do I suggest coffee, trying to make it seem like I just might want a friendship? Or do I just flirt with him (more than I have been!!) to see if he takes the inititaive?

I pointed out to her that students frequently invite me to coffee. The nice thing about coffee is that it can have multiple meanings; it can be a wonderfully casual “first date”, or it can be an extension of normal office hours, complete with refreshment. I’m a great believer in having coffee with students, knowing that the chance to chat with a professor one-on-one in an informal environment was one I always treasured when I was an undergraduate. It’s a situation that can be, and indeed should generally be entirely non-sexual, uncharged and unfraught with romantic implications. But it’s relatively easy for even a young adult to inject some gentle flirtation into a coffee date — and my former student can try that with Dr. DH and see how he responds.

I warned her, half teasingly, that she might be very disappointed. Many of us who are masterful and charismatic in the classroom are stunningly not so when we are out of “our element”. While there’s nothing inherently unethical about a 22 year-old dating her 30 year–old former professor, the chances are pretty damn high that she’s got him on some sort of a pedestal. Up until this point, theirs has been a one-sided relationship; he lectures to a large classroom, she sits and gazes at him. She projects more on to him than he has to her, even if he has “noticed” her in a way that goes beyond the purely professional. The chances of disillusionment on her part are near 100%, though I’ve seen more than one relationship survive that process.

Because we’re friends, I felt comfortable challenging my former student to check her motives. Some students pursue professors for the same reason some young women seek out older men; they look for a yardstick by which to measure their own attractiveness. Dating (or, depending on the milieu, merely having sex with) a popular professor who is widely acknowledged to be “desperately hot” might be simply a way to boost the ego, or to boost status in the eyes of peers who share an attraction to this desirable instructor. Even if he is older and presumably wiser, it’s at best unkind and at worst deceptively manipulative to pursue a relationship of any duration merely for the sake of bragging about it (even if that bragging is confined to one or two very close friends.)

I’ve said a time or nine that older men, younger women relationships are problematic — but not always strictly inadvisable — for many reasons. I’ve pointed out too that most student crushes on professors are less about the desirability of the instructor and more about how that professor makes the student feel about himself (or herself), about ideas, about possibilities for life and the world. But all of this doesn’t mean I don’t think a mature young student can’t ask out a relatively young, eminently single, hot assistant professor. Something interesting will happen no matter what the final outcome.

“Affirm and redirect”: how “Smart People” gets older men, younger women exactly right

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on April 22, 2008
in Movies and Older Men & Younger Women
. 1 Comment

The first post I ever wrote on “older men, younger women” was inspired by a movie, Love Song For Bobby Long. The most hits I’ve had on any post so far in 2008 was also movie-inspired: Age is Never Just a Number.

Right before we left on Spring Break, my wife and I went to see Smart People. It was a bit of a disappointment, largely because the two leads (Dennis Quaid and Sarah Jessica Parker) seemed miscast in their roles as a college professor and physician. The two supporting cast members, Juno’s Ellen Page and the sublime Thomas Haden Church, did their best to redeem the film. Church plays “Chuck”, a middle-aged ne’er-do-well who moves in with a widower prof (Quaid) and his overachieving daughter, Vanessa (Page).

Ellen Page is as pitch-perfect as ever as Vanessa, a socially awkward over-achieving young Republican who mothers her father and studies frantically for the SAT. Her monumentally self-absorbed father largely ignores her evident unhappiness — but uncle Chuck doesn’t. Chuck is troubled by his niece’s robotic, joyless behavior, and he starts a concerted campaign to get Vanessa to have fun. He gets her stoned one night, and then another night takes her to a bar. As they leave the bar, a tipsy Vanessa grabs her uncle and kisses him passionately. Chuck pushes her away immediately, horrified that she has misunderstood his interest in her. Much of the rest of the film (and indeed, the best scenes in this mediocre picture are all between Page and Church) is concerned with the way in which Vanessa and Chuck work through their awkwardness engendered by that kiss, and the way in which Vanessa comes to understand what it was and is she means to her uncle. Continue reading ‘“Affirm and redirect”: how “Smart People” gets older men, younger women exactly right’

Another in the Older Men, Younger Women series: sex, power, and redemptive aggression

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on March 17, 2008
in Older Men & Younger Women
. 20 Comments

I still get letters about the Older Men, Younger Women topic. A very long one came in last week from a 27 year-old woman, “Elizabeth.” Excerpts:

I wanted to write to ask about my desires to be with older men. I am now 27, and I realize you were more concerned about women in their teens to early twenties, but this desire is nothing new. I have always been attracted to men much older than me (with regards to my age- ie a 5 year difference isn’t a big deal at 27, but when I was 17 and was talking to a 22 year old it was significant). I am wondering if this is a pattern that is a result of being the victim of sexual abuse/molestation? When I was 14 my first sexual experience EVER was with a man who was related thru marriage- an uncle married to one of my mother’s sisters. I would imagine he was in his thirtees at the time, but strangely enough I don’t think I ever felt like I had major issues over the matter. There was nothing obvious. No lingering feelings of guilt, no nightmares. I never think about it, which is why I wonder if my desire to be with older men is my brain’s subliminal way of “fixing” the matter- I have heard of a couple of defense mechanism victims of sexual abuse or rape will employ. One is “identify with aggressor” which I think I may have done for a period during my life.

Elizabeth shares a colorful history of sexual relationships with older men. Her “pattern”, if there is one, is to be in relationships with older men who don’t habitually pursue younger women. As she puts it, she “relished the attention and basked in the glow” that came from men who were, it seems, surprised by her evident interest in them. Elizabeth is now starting “something new” with a man of 53, almost twice her age. He’s interested, but a little stunned by her forthrightness and aggressiveness; she writes that “I enjoy my new man’s flustered reactions.” Continue reading ‘Another in the Older Men, Younger Women series: sex, power, and redemptive aggression’

“The rights of desire”: a professor-student romance makes the local news

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on February 25, 2008
in Marriage, Older Men & Younger Women, Sexual ethics and transformation, Student crushes and professor-student relationships and Teaching
. 13 Comments

This story popped up on my radar screen today: Professor, ex-student tie the knot.

Muata Kamdibe and Crystal Domingues aren’t looking for anyone’s stamp of approval - not from their resistant families, curious colleagues, or a gossip-prone public.

For two months, the couple managed to keep their romance a secret from everyone, knowing the kinds of whispers and judgments their 18-year age difference would spawn - as well as the fact that Kamdibe, 36, a Rio Hondo College professor, first met Domingues, 18, when she was a student in his class last fall.

But it all publicly tumbled out two weeks ago, when Domingues was reported missing by her family, then tracked down by a private detective Feb. 7 to Kamdibe’s home in Irvine.

Well, that’s one way to start off with the in-laws. Continue reading ‘“The rights of desire”: a professor-student romance makes the local news’

Age is never just a number: on “Juno” and covert older men/younger women boundary violation

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on January 14, 2008
in Favorite Posts 2008, Movies and Older Men & Younger Women
. 61 Comments

My wife and I finally got around to seeing Juno this past Saturday night. It was as delightful as promised. Other bloggers have already dealt with the issues of sexual agency and teen pregnancy raised by the film, and the question of whether the picture carries a subtle “pro-life” message has been widely debated. I’m not going to add to the fine commentary already out there. But I was struck by one aspect of the film that dealt with an oft-posted on topic here, older men/younger women relationships.

Warning: mild plot spoiler below the fold. Continue reading ‘Age is never just a number: on “Juno” and covert older men/younger women boundary violation’

Older men, younger women again: a note on the Kucinich marriage

Published
by
Hugo Schwyzer
on October 09, 2007
in Marriage, Older Men & Younger Women and Politics
. 17 Comments

Look! A post on something other than reverse snobbery or bondage for Christians! Rejoice!

My old friend Bill reads this blog, and has noted my penchant for taking fairly strong stances on certain subjects, like the sinfulness of wearing fur and the generally problematic nature of older-men, younger-women relationships.

Bill recently went to a fundraising event where he briefly met Dennis Kucinich and his wife, Elizabeth Harper. Dennis turned 61 yesterday; his wife Elizabeth is, as many folks know, more than three decades his junior. (Dennis’ campaign page is here, and his wife’s page is here.).

Bill, knowing of both my general disapproval of significant age-gap relationships and my deep fondness for the only fellow vegan in congress, writes:

I see lots of deserved kvelling about Mr. Kucinich but nary a word about his being married to a woman thirty years younger than he is. Plenty of paragraphs devoted to that subject in general but nothing about those two. Heck, I don’t think I saw even one word about Mrs. Kucinich at all. So what’s the deal? Does Kucinich get a free pass from you because of his outstanding professional record? Or are you so taken with them as a couple that the age difference doesn’t look so bad on them? Or do you secretly think it all depends on the two people in question?

Like a lot of folks, I raised an eyebrow when I heard about the Kucinich marriage two years ago. 31 years is not an insignificant age gap, after all. At the same time, as I’ve made clear in my many posts on this subject, it’s not wise to subject all age-disparate relationships to rigid hard and fast rules, save when the younger partner involved is under 21. Continue reading ‘Older men, younger women again: a note on the Kucinich marriage’