Archive for the 'Older Men & Younger Women' Category

Does the libido mature? A musing on desire and ageing in response to Fiona

I am home from a very happy visit with my family in Northern California.  Despite nursing a mild cold, I did get in some good trail running, got plenty of sleep, plenty of time with my family.  I also got to be among the 72,000 in attendance as my beloved Golden Bears won an impressive victory over the Oregon Ducks last night.   It was my first time in Memorial Stadium since 1986, and it was a joy to be back.

I am pleased to find that such an interesting and civil discussion took place beneath this post.  I always worry when I’m not around to edit or delete offensive comments, but it seems to have gone quite well.

Before wrapping up my Sunday quietly, I want to address two comments by Fiona below last week’s post on Mark Foley and working with teens.

First Fiona asked:

Do you ever worry about being sexually attracted to your students or youth group kids? Don’t you ever think you might be tempted to cross the line? You write as if you are immune to temptation. Just because you don’t act on it doesn’t mean you don’t feel it!!

Then in a follow-up:

Do male youth leaders like him (Hugo) behave because they don’t have sexual desire, or do they have sexual desire but just control it? It makes a difference to me as an 18 year-old, and it was something my friend who was in his youth group always wondered.

A couple of other commenters weighed in, but I want to address this immediately.

I know that I tend to write a great deal about the importance of male self-control.  My emphasis on self-discipline, I realize, suggests that I spend a great deal of time "wrestling with temptation."  I’ve often made statements along the lines of "Virtue is not the absence of desire, but restriction in the presence of desire." 

I realize that this is a problematic line to take as a youth leader.  I make it clear that I am trustworthy and safe, but I don’t explain whether it is a struggle to be so.  While Kip (another commenter) advises I don’t answer the questions Fiona asks, I think it is vital to do so.

No, I have never experienced sexual attraction to the kids in my youth group.  It is with considerable confidence (and a sigh of relief) that I can make that statement! Never, ever, have I experienced physiological or emotional arousal as the result of an interaction with a teen who was under my charge.   I don’t know what to attribute this to, but I suspect both chronological maturity and spiritual conviction play a part in this.   At nearly forty, I can say that quite happily it has been years and years since I have experienced strong attraction to someone that young.

One thing I’ve been blessed with: a consistent track record of being attracted to women my own age.  When I was 16, I thought about my fellow teens.  In my college years, I was attracted to other students.   Unlike some of my peers, when I was in college I had little interest in older women (honestly, I found them intimidating beyond words!)  I certainly lost interest in high school-aged girls not long after leaving Carmel High.

I’ve been getting a lot of email lately (again) about my posts on older men, younger women.  (Here, here, here.) I’ve got some points I’ll probably address in another post on the subject soon.  But I realize that my experience as a teacher and a youth leader is not the only factor that makes me so inherently mistrustful of age-disparate relationships.  There’s another factor at work, and that is my own conviction, rooted in my experience, that emotional maturity always means being most strongly attracted to those in one’s own age group.

When I was in college, I remember having a discussion with a male friend of mine.  "Sean" and I were talking about my friend’s father, who had recently left his mother for a younger woman. Sean was understandably disconsolate.  But one thing he said haunted me for a long time.  I’ll paraphrase:

Dad left mom for someone only a couple of years older than us. (We were 20 or so at this time).  I don’t find women my mom’s age sexy at all.  It seems my dad doesn’t either.  What if I get married, get to be my dad’s age, and find out I’m still attracted to girls in their early twenties?  What if my sex drive doesn’t mature along with the rest of me?

Boy, do I remember when Sean asked that question in bold!  I had no answer for him, beyond a feeble "Man, that would suck."  But it frightened me.  All around me I saw evidence of men in their forties and fifties who were strongly attracted to young women in their teens and early twenties.  It wasn’t just a media phenomenon; in my early years of taking women’s studies classes, I heard countless anecdotes from my female classmates about harassment at the hands of much older men.  It made me angry, it made me cynical, but it also terrified me.  Sean was right about me too: when I was 20, I didn’t find women twice my age to be at all sexually attractive.  What if I felt the same way when I too was 40?   For whatever reason, that fear nagged and nagged at me.

But I was blessed.  And I found that my libido evolved along with the rest of me.  As I aged, my interest in my peers remained the same.  Gradually, girls in their teens lost their appeal.  Women in their 30s, and then older, began to become far more interesting.  By the time I was in my early 30s, this maturation in my own psyche was quite clear to me, even as I was going through a series of unsuccessful relationships.  My behavior was neither feminist nor gentlemanly, but even at my worst, it was always age-appropriate.   Today, I can say that my wife’s beauty awes me.  She’s beautiful in her fourth decade of her life, but I have every expectation that I will find her every bit as lovely in her eighth decade on this planet.

Once I began working with teenagers regularly at All Saints (some seven years ago), I found that my emotional response to "my kids" was, not surprisingly, often intensely paternal.  I’ve wanted to be a father for a few years now, and the teenagers with whom I work today are easily old enough to be my biological children.  And while I adore these teens in the specific, I find that those protective, paternal feelings exist for all boys and girls of similar age.  While I can certainly acknowledge the aesthetic beauty/handsomeness of certain teens, juvenile loveliness strikes no chord in me.  This is not merely due to my very happy marriage, but also due to this strong internal sense that sexual desire is rightly directed towards one’s approximate peers.

When I was in my early teens, one of my first celebrity "crushes" was on Kristy McNichol. (Famous for "Little Darlings", but also for a favorite TV show few of you remember, "Family.") Then in high school and college it was on Jennifer Jason Leigh.  Now, if I were to admit to one at all, it would be (as I’ve posted before) on Mariska Hargitay.  All three are just slightly older than I am.   And while I admire Scarlett Johannsson as an actress, hearing her dubbed "the sexiest woman alive" made me laugh out loud with disbelief — not because she isn’t lovely, but because she seems so damned young to me.

I do not mean to suggest that someone who is 39 (as I am) shouldn’t be attracted to someone who is 29 or 49.  But those ages seem to me — and this may be my own peculiarity — the outer limits of acceptability.   Anything beyond ten years either direction seems, well, odd.  Please understand that I acknowledge that age-disparate relationships can work, as long as the younger partner is genuinely emotionally mature.  A relationship between a 35 year-old and a 15 year-old is immoral, criminal, and indefensible; a relationship between a 55 year-old and a 35 year-old is none of those things. 

Still, I admit that I am perplexed by those who find such disparities to be erotically or emotionally exciting.  For me, the truth is simple: since I hit puberty, I have never experienced sexual attraction to someone old enough to be my mother or young enough to be my daughter.  And I acknowledge that one reason why I am often so hard on men who do experience that attraction to much younger women is because I can’t empathize with it, not even for a moment.   I try and "get it", and I just can’t.  It makes me instinctively angry, both on behalf of the girls who are all too often horrified by inappropriate sexual attention and on behalf of those "older" women who are forced to worry obsessively about losing their sex appeal as a consequence.

I began this post intending to make an emphatic response to the awkward but important question that Fiona posed.  I realize I’ve gone off on quite a tangent, and for that I apologize.  But as I started to write, I thought about what Sean had asked all those years ago.  I don’t know whether or not his life has turned out as mine has.   For his sake, and the sake of the women who love him, I hope it has. 

It is possible that my experience that the objects of my desire age as I age is just a quirk of my personality.  It certainly hasn’t been the result of any conscious effort on my part (and my regular readers know I am quick to sing the praises of conscious effort!).  But I can’t help but think that "my way" is the fundamentally healthier way.  It just seems to me that a great deal of heartache and exploitation could be avoided if we could all just match our libidos to our approximate peer group!  Or am I wrong?

Reprint: Daughters and Fathers, Girls and Men

I’m on hiatus — at least from substantive blogging — until August 28.  Until then, I’m reprinting favorite posts from 2004 and 2005.

I’m not in the habit of quoting from advice columns.  Still, I do read them regularly, and Carolyn Hax of "Tell Me About It" is perhaps my favorite these days.  I was struck by this one that appeared in today’s Times, but which I can only find online here:

Dear Carolyn: I’m a 15-year-old girl and have a twin brother. I really love my Dad, but he has little interest in doing things with me. He spends lots of time with my brother every weekend, taking him to ballgames and playing golf and tennis with him, and they go on camping trips in the summer, but he never invites me. I recently got up the courage to tell him that I would sometimes like to be included, but he said that a father and son need bonding time, and that I should be spending more "mother/daughter" time with my mother.

I’m really more interested in doing the kinds of things my Dad and brother do together, and my mother is not interested in them. And we do spend plenty of "mother/daughter" time anyway. He is a good father, and I don’t think he understands how much this hurts. My brother has all kinds of souvenirs in our room from the things they have done together, which are a constant reminder to me. How can I make my Dad understand that spending time together is just as important to me as it is to my brother? — Left Out

Hax doesn’t say it, so I will:  this man needs to get in touch with the wonderful Dads and Daughters.  Pronto.

In my dual roles as gender-studies professor and youth leader, I’m a great advocate of adult men (fathers and others) spending time with boys.   Here is where I am in complete agreement with the Men’s Rights Advocates; indeed, a belief in the importance of good fathers and strong adult male mentors in boys’ lives is one of the few points that can unite the entire men’s movement.  "Left Out" has a father who seems to have embraced that part of his job, her dad even uses the phrase "bonding time" to describe what he and his son are doing together.   The assumption, which "Left Out" rejects, is that this kind of bonding is most important between parents and their children of the same sex.

To some extent, this attitude carries over into youth group work.  I’ve often worried that I’m being unfair in the amount of time and availability I have for the guys at All Saints compared to their female peers.  For example, I’m willing to give my cell phone number out to any boy who asks for it.  (And I’ve had to stress, many a time, that they are NOT to call after 9:00PM, a point some have a hard time grasping!) I’ve got a couple of guys with whom I meet (alone) semi-regularly for lunch or coffee.  Except in emergencies, I don’t give that number out to girls, nor do I meet with them alone.  Some of this is in keeping with church policy, some of this a result of boundaries that I have in place because they just seem to "make sense."

As I’ve written before, we live in a culture that, with some justification, distrusts adult men who want to spend time with adolescent girls.  (I suppose in the wake of recent scandals, we are beginning to distrust men who want to spend time with any child, regardless of sex.)  As a youth leader, it’s easy for me to justify spending more time with the boys because, I sometimes assume, they are more in need of a male role model than their female counterparts.  I know I’m sometimes guilty of the very kind of gender essentialism that "Left Out" rejects when she writes:  I’m really more interested in doing the kinds of things my Dad and brother do together..

Spending time with youth can’t be a zero-sum game — we can’t assume that just because boys desperately need male role models that young girls don’t.   Somehow, we in youth work have to find a way to balance the need for public accountability and safety with the very important goal of having safe, strong, loving men play active roles in the lives of girls.

Obviously, youth leaders and fathers have different roles in the lives of young people.   No matter how devoted we in youth work are, we are no substitute for good and loving parents.  But just like fathers and mothers, we have an obligation to nurture and care for all of our kids, not just those who share our sex.  In a world where adult men are regularly viewed as predatory or odd for wanting to work with young folks of any gender, the justification for keeping the "men with the boys" and the "women with the girls" may be difficult to sustain.  I’m not saying that we ought to treat boys and girls identically.  Male youth leaders should, obviously,  still sleep in the boys’ cabin, not with the girls. (Though in a church that has more than one gay male youth leader, that policy has made at least one parent I know rather uncomfortable!)  But we cannot allow our fears to outweigh our responsibility to care for all of our children, and we must be careful to avoid a gender essentialism that minimizes the importance of fathers and other adult men in the lives of young women.

Originally published April 21, 2005

A surge of interest in older men, younger women, and an announcement about going on hiatus

For some reason, there’s been an absolute explosion since last Saturday in the number of hits to this blog looking for info on "older men and younger women."  These remain my most popular posts ever by far — I’m averaging 15-20 hits every hour of every day this week from sites like Google Australia and Yahoo in France, all eager to read more on this subject.  I note that I now have the #1 and #2 ranked sites on Google USA for that search query!  Searchers may not like what they find, but once again, here are my three posts on the topic:   

Some reflections on older men, younger women and integrity

More on older men and younger women, a long response to "Kate"

One last post on older men, younger women: a reply to "Emily"

Any theories as to why this topic — always a popular one — has suddenly become even more popular with so many folks?

And this blog is now going on a hiatus for the next three weeks.  The fall semester starts on August 28, and regular blogging will resume on that day.  Until then, starting Monday, I’ll be putting up some old posts (from 2004 and 2005) as "reprints."  I’ll do those a couple of times per week.

I am going to spend this time off relaxing and doing some other kinds of writing.  I will be near my computer at least part of the time, but I may be a bit slower than usual about returning emails.

To all my new and regular readers, thanks so much!

UPDATE:  Darn, I am down to 2nd and 3rd on Google.  How did that ranking change so fast?

“Ranking the girls”: a note on teaching and an ugly side of homosociality

Not a lot of time for posting today, I am busy grading and resting.

Yesterday on campus, I ran into a colleague I hadn’t seen in several years.  "Max" and I were hired around the same time as adjuncts in the early 1990s; I eventually was lucky enough to get a full-time job.  Max (who taught sociology and psychology) was not.  He taught at PCC for a number of  years, and then gave up his dreams of teaching and went into the business world.  He told me yesterday, as we greeted each other, that he’s back to "adjuncting" again — his business success has allowed him to return to his original passion of college teaching, even if only part-time. He’s maybe a decade and a half older than I am, somewhere (I think) in his mid-fifties.

I never saw Max teach.  But I vividly remember a discussion we had close to ten years ago (’late ‘96 or early ‘97), not long before he left the college.   He was in the faculty lounge one morning, going over his class roster.  He stood up excitedly when I walked in: "Hey Hugo, look at what I’m doing!"  I came over, and saw that he had placed numbers next to the names of many of his students.  My heart sank; I thought Max was going to share with me some new and complex grading theory that would be very tedious to have to listen to. 

But it wasn’t about grading: "Hugo, I’ve ranked all the girls in all my classes!"

I was stunned, staring at the sheet.  He’d ranked them two ways.  One, "ordinally", from 1 (the "hottest" in his estimation) up to about #20 (there were that many women in the class).  Then, he’d put a second number (in a different color pen) next to the first number.  This reflected, he explained, where the girls stood on the classic 1-10 "objective" scale.  His #1 in the class, therefore, ranked as an 8.75. 

I was so bewildered, all I could think to ask was "Max, how long did this take you?" 

Max told me he did this with every class each semester.  It took him a few weeks to make decisions, he explained.  "I can’t make a final decision on where they rank until I see them in different outfits; it’s usually not until the midterm week that I am sure of what numbers they deserve. But hey, Hugo, you should try it — it’s objective and subjective grading at the same time!"  And with that, I got a slap on the back and off he went.

I really agonized for a while about confronting Max about this.  The temptation to "let it go" was overwhelming.  I was 29, still untenured (though already full-time).  I was certainly still quite tentative in my commitment to challenging older men.  But after running Max’s story by a friend of mine who was an active feminist (and not on campus), I summoned up the courage to confront him.  Of course, it didn’t go well.

I invited Max into my office, and I told him how uncomfortable I was with what he had showed me.  I used words like "sexist" and "unprofessional".  Max became very indignant.  "This is bullshit, Hugo.  I’m only doing on paper what every man does in his head.  I’m honest about it — but you, you’re a fucking self-righteous fraud!"  And he stomped off.  Later, he came up and apologized for his language , but not for his "ranking system."  And having said my peace, I let it drop.  When I saw Max yesterday, I instantly flashed back to our fight over his "rankings".  Honestly, I’m surprised I hadn’t remembered it earlier to blog about it before.

This story ties in nicely with the theme of yesterday’s post about feminist men and assertiveness.  It also dovetails with the vital issue of accountability in fantasy as well as in action.  (I wrote a long post about sexual fantasy and integrity in March.)  And in that context, I remember that Max had been right about one thing: many men do in their minds what he was doing on paper — "ranking" their students, colleagues, and acquaintances on their sexual desirability.  He may have been more brazen than many, but he was hardly unique.

As a teenager, I learned that "ranking" girls was one of the chief pastimes of my peers when we were in a single-sex group.  And I’ll be the first to admit that in those years, I happily participated.  We had long debates about whether "Cindy" or "Lisa" was the hottest girl in Mr. Fletcher’s biology class.  And of course, even at that age, I figured out the desperately obvious: the real pleasure in sharing these rankings lay in the fact that they acted like glue to cement male friendships.  I was shy and insecure and eager to make friends with guys, and at that age, more than willing to use sexual objectification as a tool to bring me closer to them. Homosociality in action indeed!

It was telling to me that Max was so eager to share his ranking system. It wasn’t enough for him to establish "control and power" over the women in his classes by secretly evaluating them on their looks without their knowledge.  Whatever pleasure that brought him was insufficient — he needed to share his efforts with another man.  I suspect that he hoped I would react with pleasure.  He knew that he and I shared some of the same female students, and that perhaps we could spend a few happy minutes together discussing and rating their physical attributes.  And to be candid, for a split second, the idea did seem appealing to me.  I’m grateful indeed that for me, the charm of his "system" vanished so fast!

Obviously, I don’t rank my students this way, even in my mind.  It’s unethical, it’s anti-feminist, it’s immoral, you-name-it.  As a married Christian feminist twice the age of my students, to do so would be antithetical to everything I profess.  But I still run into men (including some of my current colleagues) who from time to time are eager to "bond" over a shared discussion of the relative and objective attractiveness of their students, co-workers, or simply women passing by.  Sometimes, the temptation to "get along and go along" still kicks in for me, though I resist it.  The lure is not in the power over women, or the excitement of evaluating women who would no doubt not give the likes of us a second glance.  The lure — the terrible, destructive lure — is that in sharing fantasies and "rankings" men can become closer, recreating as adults the "boys only" clubs of their childhoods.

Max is back on campus. (And his real name, obviously, ain’t "Max.")  And I’m wondering whether to bring up the ranking system again, or leave it be.  He’s not violating an official college ordinance, after all.  Maybe what he’s doing is harmless.  But from the perspective of his students, the idea of him continuing on with his "system" bothers me still.  I’m not yet sure what, if anything, I’m going to do.

A long post on John Derbyshire, adolescent sexuality, and “salad days” — UPDATED

I’m really on a Dar Williams kick this morning.

Both Amanda and Lauren* take issue with the stunning comments of National Review columnist John Derbyshire on the subject of women, age, and sexual attractiveness:

Did I buy, or browse, a copy of the November 17 GQ, in order to get a look at Jennifer Aniston’s bristols?** No, I didn’t. While I have no doubt that Ms. Aniston is a paragon of charm, wit, and intelligence, she is also 36 years old. Even with the strenuous body-hardening exercise routines now compulsory for movie stars, at age 36 the forces of nature have won out over the view-worthiness of the unsupported female bust.

It is, in fact, a sad truth about human life that beyond our salad days, very few of us are interesting to look at in the buff. Added to that sadness is the very unfair truth that a woman’s salad days are shorter than a man’s — really, in this precise context, only from about 15 to 20.

Yikes.  First off, I wish I were the first (one of Amanda’s commenters, Lubbock Troll beats me to it) to point out that Derbyshire misuses the notion  of "salad days."  While today, folks associate the phrase with youth and vitality, the original line is from Shakespeare’s Antony and Cleopatra: "My salad days,/When I was green in judgment: cold in blood,/To say as I said then".   Salad, for Shakespeare, meant "unripe", "immature", literally and figuratively "green".  It is not a phrase designed to recall a happy youth at the pinnacle of beauty, but a reminder that (thank God), the young and the "green" mature and grow riper and wiser.

But it’s my baby brother who’s the Shakespeare scholar.

Lauren* and Amanda and their commenters skewer Derbyshire from a variety of angles, and almost all of the criticisms are richly deserved.  There is much that he says in those two short paragraphs that is objectionable.  First off, since it’s clear he means "salad days" in the modern sense as referring to the peak of a young woman’s attractiveness, it’s vital that we acknowledge that he does speak for all too many contemporary men who do fetishize teenage girls.   I’m told that the most popular term on internet porn search engines is "teen", and that "schoolgirl" isn’t far behind.  The popularity of the "Barely Legal" niche of erotica is undeniable — Larry Flynt sells a very successful porn mag with that title.  And of course, as with porn, so with the broader culture that has little problem depicting teenage girls as particularly desirable.

I’m not going to dispute that many men — including those of Derbyshire’s age (he’s in his forties) — are sexually attracted to adolescent girls.  What I will dispute is that that is purely a function of biology.  From an evolutionary standpoint, it makes little sense.  Most of the pornography in the "barely legal" genre seems to emphasize that "their girls" are barely developed.  It’s not as if these young women have the wide hips that symbolize fertility!  Furthermore, as plenty of other commenters have pointed out, our cultural obsession with adolescent girls comes along with a fetishization of hairlessness.  More and more young women, inspired by porn, are "going Brazilian" (removing all pubic hair, sometimes permanently).   Folks, hairlessness has zero connection to reproductivity; indeed, it symbolized lack of maturity, girlishness, childhood. 

The contemporary male fascination with the pubescent and the hairless is not defensible on evolutionary grounds.  It’s all too obviously, as I’ve pointed out in my many prior posts about older men and younger women, about power.   Men who are threatened by adult women with adult needs, adult desires, and adult voices will invariably direct their sexual energy towards the young, the vulnerable, the "green", the safe.  The obsession with the still-developing adolescent (remember, Derbyshire includes fifteen year-olds) is about what Barbara Ehrenreich calls the male "flight from responsibility."  What is appealing about the young and the virginal is not firm flesh, it’s a fragile and still-unformed sense of self that an older man imagines he can mold.   The virginal and the young are "unspoiled", not yet "bitter" from bad experiences with men.  Older men also eroticize youth because they long to be the first — and thus safe from unflattering comparisons to a woman’s previous lovers.  The obsession with virginity and youth is inextricably linked not only to fear of adult women and the challenges they offer, but also to a profound insecurity.

Reading Derbyshire, I wonder how many actual teenage girls he really knows.  Between teaching confirmation classes and leading Wednesday night youth groups these past six years, I’ve spent a heck of a lot of time with a heck of a lot of high school girls.  Every week, I’m surrounded by 14, 15, 16, and 17 year-olds.  These girls are real people — not the caricatures of adolescence portrayed on MTV and in the Abercrombie and Fitch catalogues.  Most of "my girls" are not poised.  They are in varying stages of adolescence, but all are still, in a very real sense, "green".  Don’t get me wrong: I love these girls with all of my heart, just as I love their brothers.  I’m not yet a biological father — in a very real sense, these are my kids.   

As I spend time with these girls, I’m mystified as to how any adult man could respond to them sexually.  It’s not that I’m repressing some forbidden desire!  Nor is it because I am now happily married to a wife to whom I’m powerfully drawn.  I worked with teens when I was single, and when I was going through a painful divorce.  At no time did I find myself responding sexually — not even for one half-second — to a single one of my teens.  I’ve built a legacy of credibility on this blog by sharing a lot about myself, so I think I can say this and be believed.  And frankly, I’m confident that the other male youth leaders with whom I’ve worked are also absolutely "safe" in this regard. When I look at "my girls", I see teens — not children any longer, but not adults yet.  And I cannot eroticize the young, the developing, and the vulnerable.  I know these kids far too well for that.   In my experience, when you spend quality time with teenagers, listening to them and interacting with them and supporting them and praying for them, it’s impossible to respond to them sexually.   Honestly, a whole lot of men might benefit from spending MORE time (not less) around teenagers.  It might help them separate their powerful and natural desire to protect and nurture from their sexual desires.  It’s easier to objectify what you don’t know and don’t love!

So Derbyshire’s commentary makes me sad. As an adult man, I disagree with him on a personal level about women, age, and desirability.   As a feminist, I’m frustrated by the great number of men who do agree with Derbyshire.  I don’t see their sexual attraction to teen girls as based on biology, but on fear.  Fear of adult women, fear of egalitarian relationships, fear of personal transformation.  Only those who are confident enough to challenge us can help us grow; when we men eroticize the young, the tentative, and the innocent we are really eroticizing our own reluctance to transform!  And that’s heartbreaking.  So many people lose in this scenario!  Adult ("older") women are seen as "past their expiration date" and suffer from a sense of lost sexual desirability.  Teenage girls (who are still "green" in the real sense of "salad days") are sexualized and exploited by older men, forced to become mistrustful of most adult males and forced to deal with their own sexuality far too early.  And men?  Men miss the opportunity to match their libidos and their hearts.  They miss the chance to grow that only relationship with an equal can offer.

All that said, there’s one thing about Lauren*s post that upset me.  Commenters at both sites draw attention to Derbyshire’s looks (Lauren* even posts a picture). Several folks make fun of the fact that, well, John Derbyshire is not a conventionally handsome man.  The implication is that his comments about women’s looks are particularly inappropriate, presumably because the unattractive have even less right to make sexist and degrading remarks.  But the problem lies in the reverse implication: if Derbyshire were strikingly good-looking, would that mitigate the offensiveness of his words?  Do handsome older men have a special right to objectify teens that their homelier peers do not?  A forty-something man responding sexually to a fifteen year-old (while dismissing the charms of a thirty-six year old woman) is always offensive, whether that man looks like Brad Pitt or John Derbyshire.   

Look, I understand the desire to make fun of one’s opponents.  I understand the temptation to point out the stunning gall of an unattractive older man finding Jennifer Aniston insufficiently desirable because of her age.  But really folks, we can do better than that!  I’ve never been a "fight fire with fire" kind of pro-feminist.  I’m not above a little snarkiness, but I think that posting the Derbyshire picture sets a dangerous precedent.  It reminds me too much of how misogynists often posted pics of Andrea Dworkin and connected her presumed homeliness to her radical feminism.  I didn’t like that.  And I don’t like it done to John Derbyshire.

*Apologetic Update:  In my first version of this post, I attributed the Feministe post to Jill, not Lauren.  Such a confusion is an excellent way to annoy everyone and embarrass oneself, so mea culpas all ’round and noodle lashings for the scribe.

Second Update:  In truth, as I read the comments of those defending the use of the photo of Derbyshire, part of me is reactive because, frankly, I worry about the same thing being done to me.  Like lots of bloggers, I have plenty of pictures of myself up and about on the blog — some more flattering than others.  Several MRA blogs still use that darned see-saw picture of me.  I realize I could avoid this by not having any public photos available on the blog, but I do think pictures help us  to "flesh out" the person whose work we’re reading.  But it hurt when it was done to me.  And even more honestly, though this will sound self-serving, it also bothers me when some folks on the professor rating sites have said that my looks factor into my generally laudatory teacher ratings.  So for all these reasons, I’m oddly protective of Derbyshire — on this issue alone…

One last post on older men, younger women: a reply to “Emily”

I do pay attention to what search terms folks use to find this site.  Over the past six months, one theme has continued to bring dozens and dozens of folks here every single day:  "older men, younger women."   Perhaps these searchers hope to find pornographic images, but I suspect that most of them are looking for more information and discussion.

Here are my two main posts on the subject:

Older Men, Younger Women, and Integrity

More on Older Men, Younger Women, a long response to Kate

As with "Kate", I fairly regularly get e-mails asking for advice.  This one arrived today:

Hi i noticed u helped out "Kate" well i have a similar problem but not quite the same, i posted a comment on the bottom of "Kate’s" problem but here it is again exactly how i wrote it on comments page:

hey i had an un-fortunate relationship with a man of 52 when i was only 15 (UK by the way) it turn into a sexual relationship before i hit 16, all of this happened without my parents knowing, but then they found out and it went to court as a pedophile case, it was then drummed into me how much of a b*****d this man was so i ended up hating him for having sex with me before it was legal. despite all this i thought i was in love with him at the time that’s why i did it. i know now that it was just infatuation. but my problem now is ever since this happened i have found myself attracted to the much older man (being 40’s early 50’s) i don’t know why and it may be just lust but can someone please give me some advice, I’m 17 now by the way, i don’t think I’m abnormal but i just would like to hear someone elses opinion.

i don’t even know if i was meant to send it to you but the website wasn’t very clear so i just saw an e-mail address an thought I’d send it.
thank you for your time
"Emily"

First off, let me be very clear that I am a college history and gender studies professor, not a licensed psychologist.  I think most folks are clear on this, and I’m sure "Emily" is too, but it bears repeating.  At the same time, I don’t want to blow off what I assume is a sincere appeal for help, so I’ll reply in this public forum.

Second off:  It’s almost universally accepted that our early experiences help shape our adolescent and adult desires.  It’s not at all uncommon for victims of sexual abuse (which in a legal and moral and spiritual sense, Emily surely is) to report having enjoyed certain aspects of the abuse.  Mutual pleasure, as I’ve argued before, doesn’t mitigate the harm done to the victim of the abuse.  Indeed, it may even compound the problem, as a survivor of molestation who experienced some enjoyment during the abuse may be more likely to assign herself responsibility for what happened to her.

In Emily’s case, she finds herself attracted to men who meet the profile of her abuser.  This is also perfectly understandable.    If she wants reassurance that she is "normal" and "okay", I see no reason not to give her that.  Given her experiences, her emotional and physical desires make sense, and she certainly ought not to experience shame or guilt as a consequence.  But desires are not a justification for action!  I believe that 17 is old enough for legal consent in the UK, but it doesn’t mean that Emily is equipped to handle another sexual or romantic relationship with a man two or three decades her senior.   Emily may imagine that at 17 (as opposed to 15) she is more mature, more experienced, and better prepared for such a relationship.  She may even (and I say "may") fantasize that she can heal the damage done by her previous lover if she can have a successful relationship with a man of similar age to her abuser.  She wouldn’t be the first survivor of abuse to have such a fantasy; therapists’ offices are filled with women and men who continually re-enact (invariably unhappily) these childhood traumas.

I’m going to ask Emily (and anyone else in her position) to reread the advice I gave to "Kate" last May, particularly the bit about doing what is so difficult to do in adolescence: wait.  And I’m going to say this as well:

Any man in his thirties, forties, or above who has a sexual relationship with an adolescent girl is a criminal.  Now, that may not always be true legally, but in my book, it’s always true spiritually and morally.   A man in his forties might say of Emily, "She’s of legal age" (which she is in the UK), "and she knows what she wants; it’s absurd to say I’m a criminal for giving her what she wants.  What about Emily’s agency?"  Emily’s own letter makes it clear that she badly misjudged her abuser when she was 15, and though she might like to believe otherwise, it’s unlikely that she has become a substantially wiser and more effective judge of character in the space of two years.  Frankly, as an adult who works with teens, I don’t trust their desires, knowing how volatile they are.  A good man, a kind man, a "together" man in the age range that Emily finds attractive will set clear and healthy boundaries with her.  Her desires do not give him permission to engage with her in what will be, I’m convinced, a sad and painful re-enactment of her earlier abuse.

Male sexual fantasy — particularly in pornography — is filled with narratives of seductive Lolita figures who captivate and seduce much older men.  The fantasy goes like this:  perfectly nice and respectable thirty or forty-something man encounters niece/daughter of friend/student/what-have you, an apparently virginal girl in her teens.  In these fantasy scenarios, played out in countless erotic short stories and even in what passes for serious literature, it is always the adolescent girl who pursues the initially reluctant older man.  He generally makes some protestations, trying to convince his pursuer that she’s too young, that it isn’t right, but she persists and invariably gets her way.   The intensity of the girl’s desire gives the adult man in the story (and by proxy, the male reader) permission to cross the line drawn by both the state and common sense.   The story usually ends happily (Nabokov excepted), with the girl enthusiastically grateful for her sexual awakening and the man thrilled with this guilt-free fantasy!

Barf.  Seriously, barf.  The fact that so many men (and not a few young women) find compelling elements in this fantasy doesn’t make it okay to act upon.    Girls like Emily may look "grown-up", they may claim to be active sexual agents and not passive victims, but for all their apparent maturity and aggression they are still girls, girls who ought to arouse a paternal and protective response in any man biologically old enough to be their father!  While Emily might long for an older man, I can assure her that any man in his thirties, forties, or fifties who takes her to bed when she is still a teen is not himself emotionally or spiritually capable of offering her anything of enduring value.  Indeed, though she may plead her own agency to the high heavens, he is still a predator, even if he deludes himself into believing that it was he who was pursued.

I think I’ve said my peace on this subject.  Emily, best of luck.  I’ll pray for you.

A note to Scarlett about older men, younger women (again)

It was a busy morning, and I had no time for a post.

I got a lengthy email from a woman named Scarlett today, and it revisits some of the issues from the first and second posts on "older men, younger women."  Honestly, I get more e-mail about this topic than anything else I’ve posted on, save for men’s rights.  Here’s part of what Scarlett had to say:

I’m 21.  I have always been attracted to older men.

It seems that each time I start a new relationship with an older man, I am
looking for stability more than anything.  A man who wants to settle down and is finished with his partying days.  A highly intelligent, professional man that is financially secure.  Someone who I could see myself raising children with.

Someone who would undoubtedly be able to provide for a family, both
emotionally and financially.  Someone who has done a lot of living.  I have
lived through a lot in my short life, and I have a very hard time relating (and this goes both ways) to ANY person (young OR old) that has had the perfect ‘white picket fence’ life.  Naivety in a partner (or friend) is just not an option for me.  Not to mention I’m simply just not physically attracted to men my own age.  It’s always been that way for as long as I can remember.  In third grade, puberty hit - hard and fast.  I wasn’t afraid of cooties, I was too busy being attracted to my male teachers.   

I’m not saying that I’m this extremely mature woman and I have nothing left to learn or that I’m more attractive or better than anyone else in any age group.  I just want to have a family unlike the one that I knew while growing up. 

I’ve tried dating younger guys and sex seemed to be the only thing that we
could productively do together.  It just seems to be a fact in my life.

It’s not as if I’m wandering around, saying to myself "oh, I like old rich guys, they are like soooo hot"  and have no real basis for feeling the way I do.  I know what I want from life…

Women like Scarlett and Kate are a chief reason why I modified my position between the first and the second posts on the subject of older men and younger women.  Obviously, age discrepant relationships do have their merits (as long as we aren’t talking about minors and adults), and Scarlett has made one of them clear right here: older men can offer a kind of stability and experience (financial, spiritual, emotional, sexual) that her peers generally cannot.  We are quick to assume (armchair psychologists that we all are) that the Kates and Scarletts of the world are hungry for father figures.  Surely that’s true for many young women who are drawn to older men, but it would be a crude misrepresentation to say that some sort of Electra complex drives them all. 

Part of the problem that Scarlett points out is the "maturity gap", in which we see young women developing far more rapidly than their brothers.  Surely we all recognize that we live in a culture that encourages far too many young men to live in a state of prolonged adolescence well into their twenties and thirties!   But this is hardly biologically inevitable.  Indeed, just a couple of generations ago, we saw young men demonstrate responsibility and commitment on a massive scale.  At the end of World War Two, men of 19, 20, and 21 came home from war, married, and had children.  They did so by the millions.   The classic example, of course, is that of George H.W. Bush.   A combat-tested Navy pilot in his teens, he was but 22 — and married — when our current president was born in 1946.  Compare him to his son, who didn’t become a father until he was 35.  I have no intention of disparaging our current president, but his "growth trajectory" (like my own, thanks) was  slow indeed compared to that of an earlier generation of men!  The relative affluence of our culture, and the widespread availability of sex outside of marriage have reduced the appeal of marriage and maturity for young men enormously.

(Parenthetical paragraph:  whenever I talk about the baby boom in my gender classes,and talk about the readiness of so many millions of young veterans to marry and have children, the eyes of half the girls in the class light up.  No wonder we all love World War Two movies; we love seeing a generation of very young men who were willing to make commitments - and keep them!)

Of course there are some fellows in their late teens and twenties today who very much want to get married.   But a great many of them seem to be members of  conservative religious groups.  This might work out well for a young equally religious gal, but what about a Scarlett, who isn’t (apparently) a devout Christian waiting for her wedding night to surrender her virginity?  I recall the plight of a young woman I knew at Fuller Seminary, who complained that all the young secular men she dated just wanted sex without strings and the Christian guys she knew all seemed eager to have a "pastor’s wife" who wouldn’t have sex until after marriage.  My friend wanted a committed, monogamous relationship open to marriage, but one that would be sexual beforehand.  (Yes, Virginia, folks at Fuller Seminary have pre-marital sex.)   As a liberal Christian, my friend didn’t like the choices she had; neither libertines nor traditionalists had much appeal.  (She was not attracted to older men, either, so she was in a bit of a pickle.)

Given this culture of young male immaturity (and to be fair, a great many young women today reject responsibility with enthusiasm), where else can a Scarlett look save to older men?  I asked Kate to "wait" in my previous post on this subject, but Kate is 17.  Scarlett is 21, and there’s a world of difference in those four years.  While some older men she will encounter may have a sexually predatory agenda, and others may be looking for someone who won’t "call them on their crap", some may indeed be ready and willing to give her what she needs in every sense and receive from her what she has to offer.   And what else can I do but wish her the best?

More on older men and younger women, a long response to “Kate”

I got a very interesting e-mail last week from a young woman whom I’ll call "Kate" (not her real name):

I am 17 years old…and I googled "Older Men, Younger Women" because I am attracted to older men and I feel alone in my peer group (despite my many good friends and wonderful family). I was thankful to find your post. So many things you touched on are things that I feel. But I also felt abnormal and ridiculous for having the feelings I do. Although I am young, I suppose am one of those girls you described, "…those who appear outwardly fully adult may still be in need of our care and protection." I am in every way mature. I feel more comfortable with adults than I do with my own peers thus the need for more attention from the more mature male. Having said that, I want you to know, I am a good girl. I know right from wrong…and these attractions I have for older men always stay platonic—-mostly because I’m attracted to the men who are safe. But sometimes it pains me because I feel like I’m building such awesome relationships that when I become legal, or more eligible to date older men, they won’t see me like that. At that point, I get upset and I feel so rejected before anything even began. This usually happens in the school atmosphere because there are many male teachers. So many of them seem wonderful because of the teenage boy scum I go to school with. You touched on that too–the obvious attraction girls have because the older male is (hopefully) well spoken and has a wealth of knowledge and experience…verses the teenage male who is not any of those things.

I hope this e-mail makes sense…it’s so late and I am confused by my feelings. My mother knows how I feel about older men–and she said she expected it because I am so mature mentally, emotionally and yes…physically. I want to be seen and appreciated by men…and for the most part I am–and I have been for a long time. It is getting to the point, however, when I want things to progress and they just can’t. Then I don’t know how to behave and I just want to crawl out of the hole they call high school and just exist in this world without my age tattooed on my forehead.
Anyway, as much as your post made me feel slightly exposed, it was comforting because you seem to know the inner-working of the young female mind. So, thank you for that. And if you could extend some advice or something, I would appreciate it. I apologize if this is scatter brained…again, it’s late, and I’m a bit nervous e-mailing someone and pouring out all these intimate details—but I wouldn’t have done it if I thought couldn’t help me sort things out a bit.

I asked Kate if I could respond via a post, and I’m afraid I haven’t heard back from her.  Given that her e-mail contains nothing that could identify her, I’m going to assume it’s okay to respond publicly.

I just checked on Google, and this post is the #8 ranked site for the query "older men, younger women."  Who knew?

Kate’s e-mail really challenged me.  In that January post, I laid out what I believe is a fairly compelling argument for older men to avoid romantic and sexual relationships with much younger women.  I was fairly clear that I wasn’t worried about women in their thirties dating men in their fifties; I was more concerned about young women in their late teens and early twenties dating men eight or more years older than themselves. 

But yet, where does that caution leave the Kates of the world?  If I can take Kate at her word, she’s an unusually mature teenager.  She’s still got plenty of growing up to do, as even the most sophisticated of youth do, but she’s probably right when she says that she’s significantly ahead of many of her peers.  Obviously, she’s still a minor, and she recognizes that she’s not yet "legal".  But next year, when she’s 18?  What then?  If all older men scrupulously avoid dating young women Kate’s age, whom is Kate supposed to date who meets her intellectual, emotional, spiritual, and yes, physical needs? I don’t think all teenage boys are "scum", mind you.  (My men’s rights advocate critics might suspect that I harbor that conviction).  But I’m aware that many young women, like Kate, mature at a much faster rate than their male peers.  It’s going to be difficult for her to find a real equal among young men her age, and I’d be giving her unrealistic advice if I told her that there were large numbers of mature, sensible, emotionally grounded and wise 18 year-old men running around.  That doesn’t mean that such fellas don’t exist, just that they aren’t plentiful!

I think there’s a colossal difference between an 18 year-old woman dating, say, a 30-something man she met at church or through friends and dating a 30-something teacher.  Leaving aside the question of professional ethics (something that the teacher ought never leave aside), a relationship that begins with an obvious asymmetry in terms of direct power is, I think, almost always a profoundly unhealthy experience for both parties involved.   But if Kate (once she’s 18) wants to date an older man who has no direct responsibility for her academic development or emotional well-being, what then?  Does an age gap of ten, twelve, even twenty years or more inherently constitute an unhealthily asymmetrical relationship in terms of power?  Frankly, I think it depends entirely on the two people involved, simply because I know too well just how different  18 year-olds (and some 35 year-olds, for that matter) are from each other.  A hard and fast rule, as it were, simply won’t suffice.

Here’s a section of what I wrote in January:
If I were to flirt back, or if I were to date a student, I am convinced I would send a devastating message about  what older men "really" want.   Young women need older men in their lives who will respect and care about them, who aren’t their fathers or brothers but who aren’t prospective lovers, either.  They need to know that they bring more to the table than their sexuality.  They need to be seen as complete human beings.  Paradoxically, seeing young women as complete human beings means that in actions, words, and yes, even in thought, older men cannot see them as objects of sexual desire.  That doesn’t mean that we (older guys) shouldn’t acknowledge that younger women are sexual creatures.  But we must (and the burden is on us alone here, fellas) love them with radical unselfishness,and that requires that we ourselves always refrain from sexualizing them. 

I still stand by that.  But I wrote those words not just as a man in his late thirties, but as a teacher and a youth worker.  I see teenagers and young adults through the eyes of my profession and my avocation.  I’ve known for years that I was called to work with young people, and as a result, I value my role as a mentor and (sometimes) a "father figure".  In my work as a professor and church group leader, it’s absolutely vital that I never, ever, sexualize the young women with whom I work.  It’s essential that I keep firm boundaries in place, the kind that allow young people to trust me.

But in my customary enthusiasm, I took a code of ethics that applies to me personally (and one I had to grow into) and offered it up as a standard for all "older men."  Obviously, most men my age don’t do the work I do.  Most men in their thirties and forties don’t spend both their days (and often, their nights and weekends) with teenagers and young adults to whom they aren’t related.  And I’m not sure it’s reasonable to ask all men to refrain from exploring romantic relationships with women who are significantly younger.  And Kate’s letter reminds me that it’s even more unreasonable to ask all young women (provided they are legally adults) only to date men who are no more than five years older than themselves.

I’ve seen many, many disastrous relationships between young women and much older men.  But to be honest, I’ve also seen a few such relationships that were marvelous, sparkling, honest, mutually rewarding, and long-lasting.  I think such relationships are uncommon, often because so many of the older men who do date much younger women are struggling with their own issues, issues that an older woman would challenge them to confront but a younger girl might not recognize.  And of course, more than a few young women do have unresolved issues with their fathers that they seek to play out in a relationship with an older man.

But these are generalities that do not apply in every instance, as Kate (and others) have reminded me in the months since my post on the subject.  So, to conclude this long post, here’s the best advice I can give to Kate:

I understand that it’s not easy to be where you are, caught between adolescence and adulthood.  17 is rarely easy for the bright, the gifted, the mature, the one who isn’t thrilled by all that high school society has to offer!  It’s natural and normal to want to be seen and appreciated by men, and to be appreciated for all that you have to give.  Please know that your teachers, if they love their profession and genuinely care about you, ought not only not act on any feelings they may develop for you, they ought not even make you aware of them.  That’s not about infantilizing you, it’s about honoring the very special

trust that ought to exist between a teaching professional who loves teens and the students who rely upon him.

But Kate, I do think it’s possible that in the years to come, you will find older men to date who aren’t in a position of responsibilty towards you.  Honestly, you’re right:  all things considered, men who are a decade or more your senior will likely be able to offer you things that your male peers cannot.  You’re not wrong to want those things, and I don’t think that all older men will be "bad" for wanting to give them to you.  Yes, I’ve seen a few — a very few but a few — healthy, loving, supportive relationships between young women just about your age and men substantially older.  Such relationships are rare, but not unheard of. 

Kate, I don’t know you.  But I can tell you I’ve known a few young women who’ve said things very similar to what you’ve said.   And I know that in the end, what many of them really wanted from older men was not a sexual or romantic relationship, but validation and recognition and attention.  In our highly sexualized culture, however, they couldn’t believe that a man would really love them and care for them unconditionally unless they could offer him something sexual or romantic in return.  They shortchanged themselves, and sadly, they found older men who reinforced the notion that their sexuality was the most valuable thing they had to offer.  I don’t know if that’s what’s going on with you.

Adults always tell teens to be patient, and teens get tired of hearing it.  But if I can give you a piece of advice, it is to be patient just a while longer.  Let whatever boundaries you have in place that have served you well stay in place just a little bit longer.  Keep those boundaries in place especially with the men who have a sworn (even sacred) responsibility to care for you as your teachers and mentors.  There’s nothing wrong with wanting.  But there’s much to be gained by waiting, just a little longer, before "taking the next step" with anyone, especially someone considerably older than yourself.  Once you become a legal adult, and (perhaps) are in college, you will begin to meet many different men who will be unlike those you knew in high school.  You might even find someone closer to your age who does share your interests and your passions.  Stranger things have happened.

I wish I had a magic bullet to make this growing up process easier for you.  I know it’s frustrating and confusing as hell.  But it’s my hope that the older men in your life today will continue to be loving, wise guides through that process, and at your age, that’s all that they ought to be.

Please take care.

Pluss redux

Three weeks ago, we all had a big fuss about FDU adjunct — and Nazi leader — Professor Pluss.  Now it turns out that there’s another twist to the story.   The good professor’s fiancee claims to have been forced off the FDU campus according to this far-right website.  The article notes that the unnamed woman is a sophomore English major.  Pluss is, according to a number of articles about him, 51. 

Should we all just hope the future Mrs. Pluss is a student of non-traditional age?

Some reflections on sisterhood and male obligation

On the same subject we’ve been on around here lately,  Erica has some excellent remarks:

As a girl of sixteen, my body was all but my enemy according to the church.  What I thought could be sinful, said could be sinful, smoked or drank could likewise be wrong.  What I wore had the attention of several married women who spoke through the pastor or his wife to let me know that half an inch above my knee was half an inch closer to sin…

(Emphasis mine).

I look toward a time when a young woman’s body isn’t foremost a threat.  I am looking to the day when other attractive women are not perceived as a threat to my marriage.  When younger women get the direction and validation they need in healthy ways. It must be possible

(Emphasis in the original). 

I’m struck by how effectively the "myth of male weakness" serves to divide women.  I’m not sure, of course, why the (presumably older) married women In Erica’s church went to the pastor about her dress. It’s possible that they were motivated by a sisterly desire to protect her.  But as Erica implies from her own perspective as a married woman, it seems likely that they had another, less charitable motive as well: the worry that she might be a distraction to their husbands.

Last year, I put up this Sisterhood is Easier in Winter post.  (I note that it seems to be one of the more popular ones in my archives.)  I said this then, and I think it’s relevant here:

…in our culture, rightly or wrongly, revealing dress, sexuality, and self-esteem are inextricably linked. I recognize as well that revealing dress fosters a culture of competition, even among college-aged women, and that competitiveness does irreparable damage to the already fragile bonds of gender solidarity that those of us in this field are working so hard to foster.

I do believe, of course, that outside of a nightclub setting, we all ought to practice modesty in our dress.  That said, I’m keenly aware of just how much this competition among women is rooted in the assumption that men are too weak to control their thoughts and actions when faced with a young woman in revealing clothing. 

On the one hand, Erica is absolutely right that we need to do much more to provide young women with positive, non-sexual validation.  (That was part of the point I was trying to get to here.)  Men have a vital role to play in providing that validation to younger women.  Every time an older guy refuses to respond to a younger woman’s desirability but focuses on her identity and her abilities, he’s taking positive action.  But he’s not just taking positive action for the sake of that young woman — his restraint affects everyone positively.

Let me put this in personal terms.  When I’m working with young women at the college or in my youth group, I’m aware that I have a broad set of obligations.  Here they are in no particular order:

A. I have an obligation not to abuse the trust placed in me by the college or the church.  When I teach or lead youth group, that institution’s reputation is also on the line — and it is mine to defend.

B. I’ve also got an obligation to the young woman with whom I’m interacting.  It is vital that she feel respected and cared for; it is essential that she see me as safe and nurturing rather than predatory and dangerous.  Perhaps she wants to be seen as sexually desirable; perhaps she doesn’t.  But almost paradoxically, in order to honor her as a human being I may have to ignore her wishes.  I’ve got to be brave enough to risk being called paternalistic!

C.  Without question, I’ve got an obligation to my fiancee.  I want all of my words and my actions to honor her.  I often ask myself:  "If she could see me right now, would she be okay with what I’m doing?  Would she feel threatened or disrespected?"   I want my fiancee to feel comfortable around the younger women with whom I work, partly because I think she has so much to offer them herself.  It’s my job to make that possible by making it clear to everyone, near and far, that my devotion to her is absolute and unwavering.

D.  I’ve got an obligation to other men, both older and younger.  They need to see that it’s possible for a man to set very clear boundaries and be scrupulous about avoiding impropriety.  They need to see that avoiding impropriety is not the same thing as withdrawing love and attention from those for whom one is charged to care.  Though I am fully human and fully flawed, they need to know that our culture perpetuates inaccurate myths of male weakness that disempower men and pit women against each other.  And they need to see in my actions that those are just myths.

Obviously, women have a great deal of work to do as well.  But as I’ve written 97 times, as a pro-feminist man, it’s not my job to police the sisterhood.  It’s my job to focus on my own actions as a man and to call my brothers to accountability.  If we all are willing to take risks while practicing great self-restraint, there’s a lot we can do within our communities to change the dynamics between women, between men and women, and between men and men.  And one example at a time, we can put the myth of male weakness to rest.

Taking down the album, and another follow-up

Dylan wrote beneath my Monday post on the fast that she was concerned about my publicly posting pictures of All Saints teens.  As she suggested might be the case, our church does indeed have a policy against publishing photographs of our teens, and I have hidden the album that had been up since Monday. (For the youth group kids, you can still email me and I’ll send them to you directly.)  Just when I think I know all there is to know about youth work, I find out something new.  Thanks, Dylan, for raising the issue! 

In the comments below this post we have gotten sidetracked into a discussion of what is "natural", and I’ve been forced to admit that when it comes to the discussion of the biological explanations for earlier adolescent development, I am at a loss. It’s also unfortunate, because I agree with what most of the commenters are saying, which is that we have to do as much as possible to address the social factors that lead to the early sexualization of adolescents.

It’s a busy day, and so I don’t have much time to work up a good post.   I am reminded, just from the comments section, of how many very young women experience being objectified by much older men.  The stories the commenters relate match those I hear from my students.  We have a culture that celebrates the erotic potential of those still in puberty, and sees children as appropriate fodder for male fantasy (and in the worst cases, male action.)  It’s absurd to place the blame on either girls’ bodies or the fashions they wear without challenging men to change the way in which they respond to the young and the vulnerable.

I don’t know how to work with pedophiles.  I’m not trained for it.  Those folks require a specialized kind of care that most men’s movement activists cannot provide.  But I do know how to work with "normal guys" who might find themselves responding with sexual arousal to teenage girls.  It’s these men, fellows whose conscience is alive and well, who can be reached.   It’s those men I’m interested in targeting and challenging.  I’m not asking them to deny their sexual responses; I’m asking them to channel those urges towards more appropriate outlets.  On a basic level, that means working to help men "de-eroticize"adolescents and helping them to respond enthusiastically (with arousal and desire) to adult women whose agency and maturity matches their own.  (Ideally, of course, that sexual energy — even in thought — would be devoted almost entirely to their partner.)  Beyond peer-to-peer mentoring and prayer, I don’t quite know how to accomplish that.  But I am damn sure it’s a worthy goal!

More another time.

The flattery of false autonomy, Highlander, and more on older men, younger women again

A reader named Justin sent me an interesting query yesterday.  I’ll post most of it verbatim, and then try and take a public stab at a reply:

The other day, I was watching episodes of Highlander, the
Series, on DVD with a friend, and one episode we watched was “Rite of
Passage,” in which a young woman dies and becomes Immortal and Duncan
MacLeod, the hero, must see that she learns what she needs to know in order to
stay alive in the coming centuries, such as how to use a sword to defend
herself.  Most of that is only relevant if you are familiar with
Highlander mythology.

The part I’d like your opinion on is this: throughout
the episode, the young woman (just turned 18) is continually pushing for “equality”
as demonstrated by an adult man’s willingness to sleep with her.
She tries to seduce MacLeod, and he nobly declines on the grounds that it would
be inappropriate in a student-teacher relationship.  The bad guy of the
week, on the other hand, is all too happy to make kissy-face with her while at
the same time denying that she needs to learn to protect herself.

Repeatedly, the young woman insists that it is the bad guy
who is treating her like an equal – everyone else is treating her like a
child.  Abruptly, I was reminded of myself at 17 and the subconscious
belief I had that it was sexual activity that proved my adulthood: that someone
willing to have sex with me saw me as an equal, and someone who didn’t
see me sexually obviously saw me as a child.  A little later, I contrasted
this with what I’ve seen you say: that young women need to encounter safe
adult men who do not see them as sex objects.  I agree with you, but I
wonder how many young women misconstrue this treatment? 

Any thoughts?  How should a good man react to a woman
in that situation?  Do you believe there is a way to show a woman she is
equal while refusing to do the one thing she believes will prove it, or will
only time teach that lesson?

Well, I’ve never seen the Highlander series.  I remember a movie from the 1980s with that same title, and assume I am correct that the TV series is based upon that earlier film?  Anyhow, it’s a great question about feminist agency and male responsibility.  If the show is as Justin described it, it sounds as if it dealt very well with this difficult and multi-layered issue.

First off, one of the standard "tricks" of male predators is to flatter young women by inflating their sense of autonomy.  In almost all cultures, teens in late adolescence are eager to transition into adulthood.  They are tired of being seen as children, and are anxious to sample the freedom (and concomitant danger) that they are sure lies on the other side of eighteen.  As Justin points out from his own experience, we live in a culture that sees sexual activity as one of the central rites of admission to adulthood.  Therefore, an older man who wishes to seduce a girl in late adolescence can emphasize that he, almost alone among adults, sees her as a woman rather than a child.   He may stress that he is awed by her, perhaps uncontrollably so.  His hope is that she will connect sexual activity with him with her own sense of becoming an adult woman.   His goal is to make her feel like an active,, empowered subject — when in fact, he is almost certainly viewing her as an object.  It’s a truth she’ll learn eventually, and almost certainly not without great pain.

There’s a terrific book out there: New Versions of Victims: Feminists Struggle with the Concept, edited by Sharon Lamb.  Inside of it, there’s a terrific article by Lynn M. Phillips (who wrote the marvelous and important Flirting with Danger, a must-read on this subject.)  In her article, Phillips compares and contrasts two groups:  teenage girls currently in relationships with older men, and adult women who, as teens, had sexual relationships with much older men.  The results of her study are an important warning to those who dismiss the negative consequences of such relationships.  Phillips found that almost all of the teens currently involved with older men felt more "grown-up", more "powerful" than their peers who dated boys their own age.  They liked the fact that an adult man saw them as an "equal."  But the older women who had been in such relationships years earlier had a far more negative view of what had happened to them:  "I didn’t know what I was in for."  "He made me believe I was ready for things I wasn’t."   Virtually none of these adult women viewed their youthful experiences with older, more powerful men, in a positive light. 

Justin’s closing question is an interesting and important one.  He asked:

How should a good man react to a woman
in that situation?  Do you believe there is a way to show a woman she is
equal while refusing to do the one thing she believes will prove it, or will
only time teach that lesson?

Equality is a complex concept, isn’t it?  As an adult man who works with high school and college students, I’ve given it some thought.  In one sense, these young people are my equal:  they are precious human beings, children of God, as valuable and worthy and as possessed of human dignity as any other person, regardless of age.  They deserve to be heard, to be listened to, to have their feelings and their desires and hopes and fears acknowledged.  But that kind of equality, the equality of human worth, does not mean that they are equally equipped to enter into a sexual relationship with a much older, more experienced man!  It would be cruel and unbelievably self-serving of me to pretend otherwise.

With the young women with whom I work in youth group and at the college, I do everything I can to make it clear that I am interested in their thoughts, their feelings, their ideas.  At the same time, I do everything I can to make it absolutely clear that I have no romantic or sexual interest in them at all.  I believe that is exactly how adult men who work with young women should operate.  Is it possible that some young women long for sexual validation and attention from older men?  Of course. Is it possible that some of these young women feel infantilized by the rigid boundaries that any wise and decent male authority figure will have in place?  It’s possible, I suppose, but I hardly consider it a major problem.  The frustration of being treated like a child when you’d like to be seen as an adult will pass a hell of a lot quicker than the memories of being treated like an adult when you were, in some sense, still just a conflicted and uncertain adolescent!

One of the problems in our culture is that we see turning eighteen as this moment in which a person suddenly becomes equipped to make all sorts of decisions for themselves.  When it comes to sexual matters, the law cares little whether one is 18 or 38.  But we who work with the young must do more than honor the law — though of course, honoring the law is the sine qua non of good youth work! We must honor the fact that sexual, emotional, physical and intellectual development is a long process, one that endures well past the legal age of consent. 

Though I haven’t seen Highlander, there’s no question that the MacLeod character "gets it".  And though the young woman may have felt put out by his self-restraint and his protectiveness, in the years to come, she will surely see the wisdom behind his choice.

Some reflections on older men, younger women and integrity

Hugo is posting a lot today. 

My fiancee and I did make it out of the house this past weekend, despite the rain and our mutual flu affliction.  We went to see A Love Song for Bobby Long starring Scarlett Johansson and John Travolta.  It was a passable film if not a deeply memorable one, and the two leads were quite fine.  (I do want the soundtrack.) 

Johansson’s character, "Pursey", is 18 and lovely.  Travolta plays the title character, a 50ish alcoholic former English professor prone to quoting George Eliot and making odious sexual remarks to Pursey.  At one point,following a particularly obscene comment, Pursey turns to Bobby in hurt and frustration and cries out "But I’m just a girl."  It’s the line that lingered for me.   Pursey is legally an adult, and the film makes clear she is not sexually unexperienced — but the plain power of that one line drove home for me the reality we often choose to ignore, that those who appear outwardly fully adult may still be in need of our care and protection.

I thought about this just now as I read this post by Sofia at Volsunga.  Among other things, she touches on issues of older men dating younger women, and I thought I’d add some musings. No, there will be no personal disclosures in this post.  All I will say is that I can say in all honesty that today my private life matches my public pronouncements on this issue, and to God be the glory for that.

I don’t think I need to defend the proposition that we live in a culture that sexualizes and objectifies young women starting very early in life.   I work with junior high and high school age girls in my church youth group, and am well aware that a substantial number of them struggle with the overwhelming pressure to be alluring, to be sexy, to be powerful.  In frank group discussions, we’ve touched on these pressures many times over the years.  I’ve had countless similar (if slightly more sophisticated) discussions in classes with my students at PCC.

I see a great many young women eager for attention and validation from older men.  By "young", I mean both underage girls and college-aged women.  (What I mean by "older" depends on the age of the girl who is the subject of the conversation.  20 is an "older man" for a 16 year-old; 30, or even 40, might be an older man for a 21 year-old.)  For all of the progress our culture has made on some issues, it is truly remarkable how the older man/younger woman ideal has persisted.  Though there remains considerable disagreement about how old might be "too old" and how young might be "too young" (especially given legal considerations), most folks seem quite prepared to accept these relationships not only as normal, but perhaps even ideal. 

Now, I don’t think that significant age gaps in relationships are always a problem, but I do think that they are far more problematic than we are willing to let on.  When we are talking about men over, say, 27 and women under 21, they are almost invariably a very poor idea.

I’ve often written about how much I enjoy working with young men and adolesecent boys.  I’ve talked about the importance of male role models, and about how crucial it is that older men take an active interest in the emotional  and spiritual development of young men, not just their athletic and intellectual achievements.  I love "my guys".  But I also think it’s equally vital that adult men work with adolescent girls and young women.   I’m convinced that young girls badly need the presence of loving older men who are not parents or relatives, but who are still fundamentally safe.

I’ve heard, over and over again, how shocking and upsetting it is the first time a young girl realizes that an older man is sexually attracted to her.  The first catcall, the first leer, the first whistle, the first inappropriate remark — these are seldom forgotten, and they leave deep and enduring wounds.  (The younger the girl and the older the predator, the deeper the scar, it seems.)  After these early experiences, by the time they arrive at college, many young women expect to be seen as objects of desire by men in their thirties, forties, and perhaps beyond.   Young women employ different strategies to cope with this onslaught of attention. Some hide from it, making a conscious effort to deemphasize their sexuality, to appear less desirable.  Others, more troublingly, see it as an opportunity to get much-wanted validation and attention.

In my work, it is absolutely critical that I never, ever, respond to the sexuality of the young women with whom I interact.   This has nothing to do with preserving my job, and everything to do with the precious integrity of my work on gender issues.  Now, at the risk of the accusation of narcissism,